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| Author |
question about ILLEGAL Xbox MODIFICATIONS
|
|
| finndo 2004-11-19, 5:48 pm |
| Is this something that is illegal to do?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...8147495925&rd=1
I think it is... thought maybe I should ask around about it though...
(no that is not me, I am not quite that stupid)
just something I stumbled upon while searching for a halo Xbox system...
| |
| Mike Brannigan [MSFT] 2004-11-19, 5:48 pm |
| "finndo" <finndo@sc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:rmpnd.264$Fs1.108329@twister.southeast.rr.com...
quote:
> Is this something that is illegal to do?
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...8147495925&rd=1
>
> I think it is... thought maybe I should ask around about it though...
>
> (no that is not me, I am not quite that stupid)
>
> just something I stumbled upon while searching for a halo Xbox system...
Yes the backed-up games on it are illegal copyright infringement (unless he
is selling the original games too) and the seller is being dealt with.
--
Regards,
Mike
--
Mike Brannigan [Microsoft]
This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
rights
Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions, please use these
newsgroups
"finndo" <finndo@sc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:rmpnd.264$Fs1.108329@twister.southeast.rr.com...
quote:
> Is this something that is illegal to do?
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...8147495925&rd=1
>
> I think it is... thought maybe I should ask around about it though...
>
> (no that is not me, I am not quite that stupid)
>
> just something I stumbled upon while searching for a halo Xbox system...
>
| |
|
|
do you work these forums for microsoft mike or are you doing this out of
your own time?
"Mike Brannigan [MSFT]" <mikebran@online.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:erMR9qlzEHA.2600@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
quote:
> "finndo" <finndo@sc.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:rmpnd.264$Fs1.108329@twister.southeast.rr.com...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...item=8147495925
&rd=1[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> Yes the backed-up games on it are illegal copyright infringement (unless
he
quote:
> is selling the original games too) and the seller is being dealt with.
>
> --
>
> Regards,
>
> Mike
> --
> Mike Brannigan [Microsoft]
>
> This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
> rights
>
> Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions, please use these
> newsgroups
>
> "finndo" <finndo@sc.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:rmpnd.264$Fs1.108329@twister.southeast.rr.com...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...item=8147495925
&rd=1[vbcol=seagreen]
>
>
| |
|
|
| Mike Brannigan [MSFT] 2004-11-20, 6:47 am |
| "Adam" <adam.anderson@ozonline.com.au> wrote in message
news:uPDGY4qzEHA.3336@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
quote:
>
> do you work these forums for microsoft mike or are you doing this out of
> your own time?
Adam,
I am a full time employee of Microsoft but my involvement in these
newsgroups, as is for most of the Microsoft staff you see posting across our
microsoft.public.* newsgroups, is done on a voluntary basis as part of our
personal efforts to help the unmanaged communities such as our peer to peer
newsgroups.
Posts made here are made as a Microsoft employee, hence the requirement for
the use of the [MSFT[ designation in our display names and the signature
block and disclaimer.
--
Regards,
Mike
--
Mike Brannigan [Microsoft]
This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
rights
Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions, please use these
newsgroups
"Adam" <adam.anderson@ozonline.com.au> wrote in message
news:uPDGY4qzEHA.3336@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
quote:
>
> do you work these forums for microsoft mike or are you doing this out of
> your own time?
>
>
> "Mike Brannigan [MSFT]" <mikebran@online.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> news:erMR9qlzEHA.2600@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...item=8147495925
> &rd=1
> he
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...item=8147495925
> &rd=1
>
>
| |
| Tuomas Salo 2004-11-20, 9:46 am |
| Mike Brannigan [MSFT] wrote:
quote:
> Yes the backed-up games on it are illegal copyright infringement (unless he
> is selling the original games too) and the seller is being dealt with.
Not necessarily - the seller is not stating what games are included.
They could be freeware or shareware games.
Tuomas
| |
| Mike Brannigan [MSFT] 2004-11-20, 9:46 am |
| "Tuomas Salo" <Tuomas@spam.fööbär.fi.INVALID> wrote in message
news:308s8cF2ta75uU1@uni-berlin.de...
quote:
> Mike Brannigan [MSFT] wrote:
>
> Not necessarily - the seller is not stating what games are included. They
> could be freeware or shareware games.
>
The seller clear states that 20 games are one the harddisk.
"...
The Console will include 20 games that have been backed up on the Xbox email
for a list.
...." - have you e-mailed the seller for the list ? (These are not
shareware/freeware games)
There are no shareware or freeware games available for Xbox as far as I
know; since you can only development for Xbox under the various licensed
programs as detailed at
http://www.microsoft.com/mspress/books/6795.asp
--
Regards,
Mike
--
Mike Brannigan [Microsoft]
This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
rights
Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions, please use these
newsgroups
"Tuomas Salo" <Tuomas@spam.fööbär.fi.INVALID> wrote in message
news:308s8cF2ta75uU1@uni-berlin.de...
quote:
> Mike Brannigan [MSFT] wrote:
>
> Not necessarily - the seller is not stating what games are included. They
> could be freeware or shareware games.
>
> Tuomas
| |
| Nick Wilson 2004-11-20, 5:48 pm |
| What freeware or shareware games can possibly be available for the XBox? I
think you're kidding yourself in believing that this XBox does not have
preloaded 'pirated' games on it.
--
Nick Wilson
GamerTag: StalkerofHades
nfwilson@nospam.hotmail.com
"Tuomas Salo" <Tuomas@spam.fööbär.fi.INVALID> wrote in message
news:308s8cF2ta75uU1@uni-berlin.de...
quote:
> Mike Brannigan [MSFT] wrote:
>
> Not necessarily - the seller is not stating what games are included. They
> could be freeware or shareware games.
>
> Tuomas
| |
|
| Huh? Why would that matter? Isn't he free to do what he wants in a public
forum -- specially if he is answering for MS.
--
Nick W
GamerTag: StalkerofHades
nfwilson@nospam.hotmail.com
"Adam" <adam.anderson@ozonline.com.au> wrote in message
news:uPDGY4qzEHA.3336@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
quote:
>
> do you work these forums for microsoft mike or are you doing this out of
> your own time?
>
>
> "Mike Brannigan [MSFT]" <mikebran@online.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> news:erMR9qlzEHA.2600@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...item=8147495925
> &rd=1
> he
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...item=8147495925
> &rd=1
>
>
| |
| Nicholas Andrade 2004-11-21, 6:57 am |
| Mike Brannigan [MSFT] wrote:
quote:
> "Tuomas Salo" <Tuomas@spam.fööbär.fi.INVALID> wrote in message
> news:308s8cF2ta75uU1@uni-berlin.de...
>
>
>
> The seller clear states that 20 games are one the harddisk.
> "...
> The Console will include 20 games that have been backed up on the Xbox email
> for a list.
> ..." - have you e-mailed the seller for the list ? (These are not
> shareware/freeware games)
>
> There are no shareware or freeware games available for Xbox as far as I
> know; since you can only development for Xbox under the various licensed
> programs as detailed at
> http://www.microsoft.com/mspress/books/6795.asp
>
Where does the seller state that they are XBox games? They could all be
GNU/Linux games and the XBox could be running GentooX. I do agree that
the guy is an idiot and probably selling pirated backups, but there are
literally hundreds of open source games that could be included and not
violate any licenses.
| |
| JBDragon 2004-11-21, 6:57 am |
| Selling a Hacked Xbox with Backup copy's of 20 games, but doesn't post what
they are so anyone but a Moron knows they're Pirated. What's worse it's a
Private Auction. So all the people bidding on it are hidden. It doesn't
take a rocket scientist to figure this out. Also I've been hearing there's
been problems of people playing Halo2 on ANY hacked, Modified Xbox systems!
"Nick Wilson" <nfwilson@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:%233YBbDxzEHA.2200@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
quote:
> What freeware or shareware games can possibly be available for the XBox? I
> think you're kidding yourself in believing that this XBox does not have
> preloaded 'pirated' games on it.
>
> --
>
> Nick Wilson
> GamerTag: StalkerofHades
> nfwilson@nospam.hotmail.com
> "Tuomas Salo" <Tuomas@spam.fööbär.fi.INVALID> wrote in message
> news:308s8cF2ta75uU1@uni-berlin.de...
>
>
| |
| Dr.z3n 2004-11-21, 6:57 am |
|
"Adam" <adam.anderson@ozonline.com.au> wrote in message
news:uPDGY4qzEHA.3336@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
quote:
>
> do you work these forums for microsoft mike or are you doing this out of
> your own time?
>
hoo boy, this oughtta be cute.
Dr.z3n
| |
| Tuomas Salo 2004-11-22, 6:48 am |
| Mike Brannigan [MSFT] wrote:
quote:
> There are no shareware or freeware games available for Xbox as far as I
> know; since you can only development for Xbox under the various licensed
> programs as detailed at http://www.microsoft.com/mspress/books/6795.asp
If you are not aware of the various freely distributed homebrew games
that have been developed for the Xbox, it only shows that you are not
too familiar with issues related to your work.
Tuomas
| |
| Mike Brannigan [MSFT] 2004-11-22, 5:45 pm |
| "Tuomas Salo" <Tuomas@spam.fööbär.fi.INVALID> wrote in message
news:30dsg8F306t73U1@uni-berlin.de...
quote:
> Mike Brannigan [MSFT] wrote:
>
> If you are not aware of the various freely distributed homebrew games that
> have been developed for the Xbox, it only shows that you are not too
> familiar with issues related to your work.
>
Tuomas,
Thank you for your post.
Please feel free to provide links to applications developed and executable
on a production Xbox (i.e. one without modifications) to enlighten myself
and other readers.
I did however make a typo in my post in that Xbox game development programs
are listed at
http://www.xbox.com/en-us/dev/default.htm
From this link you can find out that
NO XBOX SOFTWARE PRODUCT(S) MAY BE PUBLISHED, OR DISTRIBUTED TO END USERS,
EXCEPT BY A LICENSED PUBLISHER PURSUANT TO AN XBOX DEVELOPMENT KIT AND XBOX
PUBLISHER LICENSE AGREEMENT EXECUTED BY MICROSOFT.
So there technically is no legal freeware/shareware market for unmodified
Xboxes.
--
Regards,
Mike
--
Mike Brannigan [Microsoft]
This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
rights
Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions, please use these
newsgroups
"Tuomas Salo" <Tuomas@spam.fööbär.fi.INVALID> wrote in message
news:30dsg8F306t73U1@uni-berlin.de...
quote:
> Mike Brannigan [MSFT] wrote:
>
> If you are not aware of the various freely distributed homebrew games that
> have been developed for the Xbox, it only shows that you are not too
> familiar with issues related to your work.
>
> Tuomas
| |
|
|
I can certainly see microsoft's concern as a company=20
against modding xboxs. Although they want people to enjoy=20
their products and licensed software (aheem!)..they=20
certainly do not want anyone playing around with released=20
productions that cost them money, time, and patience.
Imagine if someone developed something and was earning a=20
living off it and then someone else comes along and takes=20
it, mods it, steals parts from it, and resells it? the=20
inventor is getting screwed over. Big companies think like=20
that.=20
On the other hand you have the small people who want to do=20
more with their xboxs. Play home made games and program on=20
them. It's a double edged sword. In Microsoft's agreement=20
when you purchase the xbox you are only purchasing a=20
license to play it and use it. Technically you do not own=20
it. Your just paying to play it. Same with the software.=20
Microsoft should post this on the outside of their xbox's=20
box before people purchase it. Maybe put a seal on it=20
saying by opening this product you agree to the terms and=20
conditions and agree to play it as is without any=20
modifications, any modifications to this machine may=20
result in the termination of and or your licensed right to=20
use it.
By not putting something like this on the outside of the=20
box people can say they were not fully aware of the terms=20
of agreement. That's why credit card disclosures have to=20
be upfront in the terms of how you can use the card before=20
you apply. Video game consoles should be the same way. Its=20
not until after you open it and only if you read the=20
manual that came with it. By that time it's too late to=20
take it back without usually paying a restocking fee.
quote:
>-----Original Message-----
>"Tuomas Salo" <Tuomas@spam.f=F6=F6b=E4r.fi.INVALID> wrote in=20
message=20
quote:
>news:30dsg8F306t73U1@uni-berlin.de...
Xbox as far as I=20[vbcol=seagreen]
the various licensed=20[vbcol=seagreen]
http://www.microsoft.com/mspress/books/6795.asp[vbcol=seagreen]
homebrew games that=20[vbcol=seagreen]
you are not too=20[vbcol=seagreen]
>
>Tuomas,
>
>Thank you for your post.
>Please feel free to provide links to applications=20
developed and executable=20
quote:
>on a production Xbox (i.e. one without modifications) to=20
enlighten myself=20
quote:
>and other readers.
>
>I did however make a typo in my post in that Xbox game=20
development programs=20
quote:
>are listed at
>http://www.xbox.com/en-us/dev/default.htm
>From this link you can find out that
>NO XBOX SOFTWARE PRODUCT(S) MAY BE PUBLISHED, OR=20
DISTRIBUTED TO END USERS,=20
quote:
>EXCEPT BY A LICENSED PUBLISHER PURSUANT TO AN XBOX=20
DEVELOPMENT KIT AND XBOX=20
quote:
>PUBLISHER LICENSE AGREEMENT EXECUTED BY MICROSOFT.
>
>So there technically is no legal freeware/shareware=20
market for unmodified=20
quote:
>Xboxes.
>--=20
>
>Regards,
>
>Mike
>--
>Mike Brannigan [Microsoft]
>
>This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and=20
confers no
quote:
>rights
>
>Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions,=20
please use these
quote:
>newsgroups
>
>"Tuomas Salo" <Tuomas@spam.f=F6=F6b=E4r.fi.INVALID> wrote in=20
message=20
quote:
>news:30dsg8F306t73U1@uni-berlin.de...
Xbox as far as I=20[vbcol=seagreen]
the various licensed=20[vbcol=seagreen]
http://www.microsoft.com/mspress/books/6795.asp[vbcol=seagreen]
homebrew games that=20[vbcol=seagreen]
you are not too=20[vbcol=seagreen]
>
>
>.
>
| |
| finndo 2004-11-23, 12:54 am |
| I have not read a manual for a video game system ever in my life, and I have
owned quite a few, since 1981 with my TI 99 4/a
Both my PS2 and my Xbox still have sealed manuals (although I have sold my
PS2 already as I have not used it for more that 30 or so hours to play old
PSone rpg's since I bought an Xbox.
I feel as though I can figure out where to put the cords that only fit in 1
place on the entire system, and how to connect the cables to my stereo
receiver. Is there something else contained within the 5 language
instruction manual that I should be aware of?
PS I also seem to remember at an E3 press conference not too long ago (um..
I think 2000?) That a certain Microsoft spokesperson mentioned that they
"had" (as in already had?) downloadable games for Xbox Live that people
could get and play for free, and I think they even showed a video of a
"joust" like game and an "asteroids" type game, but my memory is faulty...
If you give me a few days, I look and see if I still have any of my digital
still shots from that press conference of those games, but I had a very hard
time getting pictures to come out as I was sooooo far back there were not
even seats in the row I was in. (got there about 3 minutes after it
started...)
"zer0" <anonymous@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:122d01c4d0f3$814b1bb0$a501280a@phx.gbl...
I can certainly see microsoft's concern as a company
against modding xboxs. Although they want people to enjoy
their products and licensed software (aheem!)..they
certainly do not want anyone playing around with released
productions that cost them money, time, and patience.
Imagine if someone developed something and was earning a
living off it and then someone else comes along and takes
it, mods it, steals parts from it, and resells it? the
inventor is getting screwed over. Big companies think like
that.
On the other hand you have the small people who want to do
more with their xboxs. Play home made games and program on
them. It's a double edged sword. In Microsoft's agreement
when you purchase the xbox you are only purchasing a
license to play it and use it. Technically you do not own
it. Your just paying to play it. Same with the software.
Microsoft should post this on the outside of their xbox's
box before people purchase it. Maybe put a seal on it
saying by opening this product you agree to the terms and
conditions and agree to play it as is without any
modifications, any modifications to this machine may
result in the termination of and or your licensed right to
use it.
By not putting something like this on the outside of the
box people can say they were not fully aware of the terms
of agreement. That's why credit card disclosures have to
be upfront in the terms of how you can use the card before
you apply. Video game consoles should be the same way. Its
not until after you open it and only if you read the
manual that came with it. By that time it's too late to
take it back without usually paying a restocking fee.
quote:
>-----Original Message-----
>"Tuomas Salo" <Tuomas@spam.fööbär.fi.INVALID> wrote in
message
quote:
>news:30dsg8F306t73U1@uni-berlin.de...
Xbox as far as I[vbcol=seagreen]
the various licensed[vbcol=seagreen]
http://www.microsoft.com/mspress/books/6795.asp[vbcol=seagreen]
homebrew games that[vbcol=seagreen]
you are not too[vbcol=seagreen]
>
>Tuomas,
>
>Thank you for your post.
>Please feel free to provide links to applications
developed and executable
quote:
>on a production Xbox (i.e. one without modifications) to
enlighten myself
quote:
>and other readers.
>
>I did however make a typo in my post in that Xbox game
development programs
quote:
>are listed at
>http://www.xbox.com/en-us/dev/default.htm
>From this link you can find out that
>NO XBOX SOFTWARE PRODUCT(S) MAY BE PUBLISHED, OR
DISTRIBUTED TO END USERS,
quote:
>EXCEPT BY A LICENSED PUBLISHER PURSUANT TO AN XBOX
DEVELOPMENT KIT AND XBOX
quote:
>PUBLISHER LICENSE AGREEMENT EXECUTED BY MICROSOFT.
>
>So there technically is no legal freeware/shareware
market for unmodified
quote:
>Xboxes.
>--
>
>Regards,
>
>Mike
>--
>Mike Brannigan [Microsoft]
>
>This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and
confers no
quote:
>rights
>
>Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions,
please use these
quote:
>newsgroups
>
>"Tuomas Salo" <Tuomas@spam.fööbär.fi.INVALID> wrote in
message
quote:
>news:30dsg8F306t73U1@uni-berlin.de...
Xbox as far as I[vbcol=seagreen]
the various licensed[vbcol=seagreen]
http://www.microsoft.com/mspress/books/6795.asp[vbcol=seagreen]
homebrew games that[vbcol=seagreen]
you are not too[vbcol=seagreen]
>
>
>.
>
| |
| Paul Angstrom 2004-11-23, 6:47 am |
| On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 16:29:33 -0800, "zer0"
<anonymous@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
<122d01c4d0f3$814b1bb0$a501280a@phx.gbl>:
quote:
>In Microsoft's agreement
>when you purchase the xbox you are only purchasing a
>license to play it and use it. Technically you do not own
>it. Your just paying to play it.
That is entirely false. When I pay for the software I am purchasing a
license to use it, but I still own the console hardware and I can do
anything I want with it as far as the HARDWARE goes.
Firmware and software on the machine can be modified as long as none of
it was created using software in a manner that violates copyright or
license agreements. Of course, it is much more difficult to legally
modify the Xbox software than the hardware because of copyright and
license agreements. The vast majority of unofficial Xbox software is
compiled using the XDK in violation of the official XDK license
agreement, but there is a small handful of legal Xbox software that does
not use Microsoft coded tools in its creation.
The official Xbox console manual can be downloaded at
http://www.xbox.com/en-us/hardware/manuals.htm
Where in the manual does it say that when you purchase the HARDWARE, you
are only purchasing a license to operate the hardware?
--
A: Because it disturbs the logical flow of a message.
Q: Why is top posting a sloppy form of writing?
| |
|
|
"Paul Angstrom" <angstrom@go.away.spammers.invalid> wrote in message
news:32k5q09lon9sc69al0neft0n8h80vr6lhr@news...
quote:
> On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 16:29:33 -0800, "zer0"
>
> That is entirely false. When I pay for the software I am purchasing a
> license to use it, but I still own the console hardware and I can do
> anything I want with it as far as the HARDWARE goes.
>
Totally conjecture, but Microsoft has lost money on the hardware in the
past, so it isn't completely beyond the realm of possiblities that Microsoft
would subsidize the cost of the unit in order to be able to enforce exactly
the kind of licensing that would prohibit any modifications. I doubt it
would happen, since then Microsoft would be responsible for keeping them
running (after all, you bought the license to be able to play, you didn't
buy the hardware), but it is not unfathomable.
..02
| |
| Paul Angstrom 2004-11-23, 5:48 pm |
| On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 09:49:57 -0500, "xTenn" <xTennRemovePart@tds.net>
wrote in message <e367xuW0EHA.1396@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl>:
quote:
>"Paul Angstrom" <angstrom@go.away.spammers.invalid> wrote in message
>news:32k5q09lon9sc69al0neft0n8h80vr6lhr@news...
>
>Totally conjecture, but Microsoft has lost money on the hardware in the
>past, so it isn't completely beyond the realm of possiblities that Microsoft
>would subsidize the cost of the unit in order to be able to enforce exactly
>the kind of licensing that would prohibit any modifications.
It is absolutely not conjecture. They can't enforce that sort of
licensing on the hardware if it's not in writing, and I don't see any
sort of _hardware_ licensing agreement in any of my purchase
documentation.
Razor manufacturers and diabetic meter manufacturers sell their
equipment at a loss in order to make money on the consumable supplies,
but that manufacturing loss gives them no implied restrictions on use of
the hardware.
quote:
>I doubt it
>would happen, since then Microsoft would be responsible for keeping them
>running (after all, you bought the license to be able to play, you didn't
>buy the hardware), but it is not unfathomable.
I bought a license to play the _software_, but the hardware is an
entirely separate issue, since no written licensing agreement was
attached to the hardware itself. Ergo, I can do whatever I want with the
hardware as long as no laws have been broken (such as copyright laws).
The majority of modchips in use will violate the law because of their
use of modified copyrighted Microsoft code, but a Linux-loading modchip
is legal because it uses no copyrighted Microsoft code.
--
A: Because it disturbs the logical flow of a message.
Q: Why is top posting a sloppy form of writing?
| |
|
| "10. SERVICE OPERATION AND EQUIPMENT
The Service may only be accessed with an Xbox video game
console, the software and/or hardware of which has not
been modified in any way (except for Microsoft authorized
repairs and upgrades). Any attempt to disassemble,
decompile, create derivative works of, reverse engineer,
modify, further sublicense, distribute or use for other
purposes either the hardware or software of the Xbox or
the Service, is strictly prohibited and may result in
termination of your account and/or your ability to access
the Service via your Xbox, and the pursuit of other legal
remedies by Microsoft. Microsoft may take any legal
action it deems appropriate against users who violate
Microsoft's systems or network security, and such users
may also incur criminal and/or civil liability."
That was posted by Mike Brannigan from the xboxlive area.
See it says Equipment (Hardware)? see it says modifying?
That means any type of mod chip or alteration to the
hardware. Microsoft wrote that in a way its referring to
LIVE and the xbox equipment at the same time. Technically
therefore it is illegal to modify the xbox without
microsoft authorization. Microsoft even left open the
possibilities of pursuing legal remedies for any type of
modification to their equipment. I doubt they will sue
xbox owners for modifying their xboxes, it just isn't
worth their time, money, and public exposure..but the fact
is modifying your xbox is a violation of your right to use
the equipment.
quote:
>-----Original Message-----
>On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 09:49:57 -0500, "xTenn"
<xTennRemovePart@tds.net>
quote:
>wrote in message <e367xuW0EHA.1396@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl>:
>
wrote in message[vbcol=seagreen]
am purchasing a[vbcol=seagreen]
hardware and I can do[vbcol=seagreen]
hardware in the[vbcol=seagreen]
possiblities that Microsoft[vbcol=seagreen]
to enforce exactly[vbcol=seagreen]
modifications.[vbcol=seagreen]
>
>It is absolutely not conjecture. They can't enforce that
sort of
quote:
>licensing on the hardware if it's not in writing, and I
don't see any
quote:
>sort of _hardware_ licensing agreement in any of my
purchase
quote:
>documentation.
>
>Razor manufacturers and diabetic meter manufacturers sell
their
quote:
>equipment at a loss in order to make money on the
consumable supplies,
quote:
>but that manufacturing loss gives them no implied
restrictions on use of
quote:
>the hardware.
>
>
for keeping them[vbcol=seagreen]
play, you didn't[vbcol=seagreen]
>
>I bought a license to play the _software_, but the
hardware is an
quote:
>entirely separate issue, since no written licensing
agreement was
quote:
>attached to the hardware itself. Ergo, I can do whatever
I want with the
quote:
>hardware as long as no laws have been broken (such as
copyright laws).
quote:
>
>The majority of modchips in use will violate the law
because of their
quote:
>use of modified copyrighted Microsoft code, but a Linux-
loading modchip
quote:
>is legal because it uses no copyrighted Microsoft code.
>
>
>--
>A: Because it disturbs the logical flow of a message.
>Q: Why is top posting a sloppy form of writing?
>.
>
| |
|
| >
quote:
> PS I also seem to remember at an E3 press conference not too long ago
> (um.. I think 2000?) That a certain Microsoft spokesperson mentioned that
> they "had" (as in already had?) downloadable games for Xbox Live that
> people could get and play for free, and I think they even showed a video
> of a "joust" like game and an "asteroids" type game, but my memory is
> faulty... If you give me a few days, I look and see if I still have any of
> my digital still shots from that press conference of those games, but I
> had a very hard time getting pictures to come out as I was sooooo far back
> there were not even seats in the row I was in. (got there about 3 minutes
> after it started...)
<snip>
You are referring to XBox Live Arcade I believe.
http://www.xbox.com/en-US/livearcad...vel3=livearcade
--
Nick W
GamerTag: StalkerofHades
nfwilson@nospam.hotmail.com
| |
|
|
"Paul Angstrom" <angstrom@go.away.spammers.invalid> wrote in message
news:52p6q0dcch708es9gudii4d54hpk6f4072@news...
quote:
> On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 09:49:57 -0500, "xTenn" <xTennRemovePart@tds.net>
> wrote in message <e367xuW0EHA.1396@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl>:
>
>
> It is absolutely not conjecture. They can't enforce that sort of
> licensing on the hardware if it's not in writing, and I don't see any
> sort of _hardware_ licensing agreement in any of my purchase
> documentation.
>
I wasn't referring to current products, so I do not understand your
reference to such. I was attempting to suggest that they *could* put out
such hardware that is licensed, not purchased. Perhaps I was not clear
enough, granted, since I stated "would" instead of "could".
| |
| Paul Angstrom 2004-11-23, 5:48 pm |
| On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 09:48:17 -0800, "zer0"
<anonymous@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
<15a101c4d184$9d3bd990$a501280a@phx.gbl>:
quote:
>"10. SERVICE OPERATION AND EQUIPMENT
>
>The Service may only be accessed with an Xbox video game
>console, the software and/or hardware of which has not
>been modified in any way (except for Microsoft authorized
>repairs and upgrades). Any attempt to disassemble,
>decompile, create derivative works of, reverse engineer,
>modify, further sublicense, distribute or use for other
>purposes either the hardware or software of the Xbox or
>the Service, is strictly prohibited and may result in
>termination of your account and/or your ability to access
>the Service via your Xbox, and the pursuit of other legal
>remedies by Microsoft.
This is in reference to the *Xbox Live service* with regard to the use
of the hardware, NOT the hardware alone. Those are two separate issues.
Modification of the hardware will result in termination of the Xbox Live
service. Show me where the equivalent prohibition against hardware
modification exists in the console *hardware documentation*.
See http://www.xbox.com/en-us/hardware/manuals.htm for a copy of the
official console hardware manual.
quote:
>Microsoft may take any legal
>action it deems appropriate against users who violate
>Microsoft's systems or network security, and such users
>may also incur criminal and/or civil liability."
Again, Microsoft's systems security and Microsoft's network security is
separate from the home Xbox console hardware when Xbox Live is not
involved.
quote:
>That was posted by Mike Brannigan from the xboxlive area.
>See it says Equipment (Hardware)? see it says modifying?
>That means any type of mod chip or alteration to the
>hardware. Microsoft wrote that in a way its referring to
>LIVE and the xbox equipment at the same time.
If a user doesn't subscribe to Live, then that clause does not apply.
quote:
>Technically
>therefore it is illegal to modify the xbox without
>microsoft authorization. Microsoft even left open the
>possibilities of pursuing legal remedies for any type of
>modification to their equipment. I doubt they will sue
>xbox owners for modifying their xboxes, it just isn't
>worth their time, money, and public exposure..but the fact
>is modifying your xbox is a violation of your right to use
>the equipment.
Nope. Unless a user subscribes to Live, none of the above applies
because there is no such agreement with regard to the hardware itself by
itself.
--
A: Because it disturbs the logical flow of a message.
Q: Why is top posting a sloppy form of writing?
| |
| Paul Angstrom 2004-11-23, 5:48 pm |
| On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 13:18:36 -0500, "xTenn" <xTennRemovePart@tds.net>
wrote in message <eARPXjY0EHA.3408@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl>:
quote:
>I wasn't referring to current products, so I do not understand your
>reference to such. I was attempting to suggest that they *could* put out
>such hardware that is licensed, not purchased. Perhaps I was not clear
>enough, granted, since I stated "would" instead of "could".
True. Future products *could* have such a license agreement regarding
the hardware, but I'm talking about the existing Xbox console hardware
*as it currently stands*.
--
A: Because it disturbs the logical flow of a message.
Q: Why is top posting a sloppy form of writing?
| |
| Chris H. 2004-11-23, 5:48 pm |
| It isn't just Microsoft involved in the hardware within an Xbox, Paul. The
components, from whatever manufacturer, are covered by patents and various
licensing agreements. If one modifies the way those are used or change the
intended behavior of the hardware, modifications are violating patent rights
and licensing agreements.
Personally, I don't really care if someone wants to open an Xbox and modify
it for their own use or ruin it trying, but don't bring it into the Xbox
Live! arena where the rest of us want to play with the identical game
standards.
--
Chris H.
Microsoft Windows MVP/Tablet PC
Tablet Creations - http://nicecreations.us/
Associate Expert
Expert Zone - www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone
"Paul Angstrom" <angstrom@go.away.spammers.invalid> wrote in message
news:k507q01efjv5ss575va9adqmbda1gbpahb@news...
quote:
> On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 09:48:17 -0800, "zer0"
> <anonymous@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> <15a101c4d184$9d3bd990$a501280a@phx.gbl>:
>
>
> This is in reference to the *Xbox Live service* with regard to the use
> of the hardware, NOT the hardware alone. Those are two separate issues.
> Modification of the hardware will result in termination of the Xbox Live
> service. Show me where the equivalent prohibition against hardware
> modification exists in the console *hardware documentation*.
>
> See http://www.xbox.com/en-us/hardware/manuals.htm for a copy of the
> official console hardware manual.
>
>
>
> Again, Microsoft's systems security and Microsoft's network security is
> separate from the home Xbox console hardware when Xbox Live is not
> involved.
>
>
>
> If a user doesn't subscribe to Live, then that clause does not apply.
>
>
>
> Nope. Unless a user subscribes to Live, none of the above applies
> because there is no such agreement with regard to the hardware itself by
> itself.
>
>
> --
> A: Because it disturbs the logical flow of a message.
> Q: Why is top posting a sloppy form of writing?
| |
| Paul Angstrom 2004-11-23, 5:48 pm |
| On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 10:49:33 -0800, "Chris H." <winxpnews@hotmail.com>
wrote in message <OTtJu0Y0EHA.2876@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl>:
quote:
>It isn't just Microsoft involved in the hardware within an Xbox, Paul. The
>components, from whatever manufacturer, are covered by patents and various
>licensing agreements. If one modifies the way those are used or change the
>intended behavior of the hardware, modifications are violating patent rights
>and licensing agreements.
None of the licencing agreements for the components apply to the end
user. They apply to Microsoft's use of licensed technology, such as
Microsoft's use of NVidia's pixel shaders. Those licensing agreements
prohibit MICROSOFT from using the hardware in a certain way, not the end
user. Never at any point in the accompanying hardware documentation does
the end user agree to abide by whatever private contract Microsoft
signed with its licensors, such as NVidia.
Nothing in the END USER's licensing agreement as stated in the official
END USER's console documentation prohibits modification of the hardware
by the end user.
quote:
>Personally, I don't really care if someone wants to open an Xbox and modify
>it for their own use or ruin it trying, but don't bring it into the Xbox
>Live! arena where the rest of us want to play with the identical game
>standards.
I agree.
--
A: Because it disturbs the logical flow of a message.
Q: Why is top posting a sloppy form of writing?
| |
| Matt Pierce 2004-11-24, 12:48 am |
| Paul Angstrom wrote:
quote:
> On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 10:49:33 -0800, "Chris H." <winxpnews@hotmail.com>
> wrote in message <OTtJu0Y0EHA.2876@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl>:
>
>
>
>
> None of the licencing agreements for the components apply to the end
> user. They apply to Microsoft's use of licensed technology, such as
> Microsoft's use of NVidia's pixel shaders. Those licensing agreements
> prohibit MICROSOFT from using the hardware in a certain way, not the end
> user. Never at any point in the accompanying hardware documentation does
> the end user agree to abide by whatever private contract Microsoft
> signed with its licensors, such as NVidia.
>
> Nothing in the END USER's licensing agreement as stated in the official
> END USER's console documentation prohibits modification of the hardware
> by the end user.
>
>
>
>
>
> I agree.
>
>
Hi Everyone,
I've been following this thread for a while and thought I'd add
something. After reading these debates I decided to look into the
Digital Millennium Copyright Act of 1998. If anyone thinking of
modifying their Xbox, or any other hardware, read the DMCA they would
decide not to. If they're sane.
Here's a link to an Official "Summarized" PDF version of the DMCA:
http://www.copyright.gov/legislation/dmca.pdf
I just thought I would throw the law into the mix. It's an interesting
read and at only 18 pages it goes by pretty quick. I found it very
informative.
Matt
| |
| Paul Angstrom 2004-11-24, 12:48 am |
| On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 18:31:50 -0500, Matt Pierce <CousNews@gmail.com>
wrote in message <ewk7VSb0EHA.3584@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl>:
quote:
> I've been following this thread for a while and thought I'd add
>something. After reading these debates I decided to look into the
>Digital Millennium Copyright Act of 1998. If anyone thinking of
>modifying their Xbox, or any other hardware, read the DMCA they would
>decide not to. If they're sane.
Hardware modifications which
(1) do not circumvent copy protection and which
(2) do not infringe upon copyright are not prohibited by the DMCA.
As such, the current Linux-based modifications to the Xbox, as well as
the handful of assembly-based Xbox programs whose creation do not
require use of the copyrighted Microsoft XDK are legal under the DMCA.
--
A: Because it disturbs the logical flow of a message.
Q: Why is top posting a sloppy form of writing?
| |
| Chris H. 2004-11-24, 12:48 am |
| I don't believe any of us are lawyers or judges here, so the issue will not
be resolved. Even if it were to be a consensus opinion either way here,
there would always be other people who want to fight the decision.
My whole thing is: Anyone can mod away if they want. Just don't cheat on
Xbox Live! If a mod on an Xbox invalidates the next 11 months of a paid
Live! subscription, tough cookies. If it costs someone their precious
gamertag, tough. Hopefully those who try to circumvent the system to cheat
will end up with that result.
--
Chris H.
Microsoft Windows MVP/Tablet PC
Tablet Creations - http://nicecreations.us/
Associate Expert
Expert Zone - www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone
"Matt Pierce" <CousNews@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ewk7VSb0EHA.3584@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
quote:
> Paul Angstrom wrote:
>
> Hi Everyone,
>
> I've been following this thread for a while and thought I'd add something.
> After reading these debates I decided to look into the Digital Millennium
> Copyright Act of 1998. If anyone thinking of modifying their Xbox, or any
> other hardware, read the DMCA they would decide not to. If they're sane.
>
> Here's a link to an Official "Summarized" PDF version of the DMCA:
> http://www.copyright.gov/legislation/dmca.pdf
>
> I just thought I would throw the law into the mix. It's an interesting
> read and at only 18 pages it goes by pretty quick. I found it very
> informative.
>
> Matt
| |
| Paul Angstrom 2004-11-24, 12:48 am |
| On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 20:24:22 -0800, "Chris H." <winxpnews@hotmail.com>
wrote in message <#UE9A8d0EHA.3376@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl>:
quote:
>I don't believe any of us are lawyers or judges here, so the issue will not
>be resolved. Even if it were to be a consensus opinion either way here,
>there would always be other people who want to fight the decision.
In that case, if none of us are lawyers or judges, we really can't call
them "illegal" Xbox modifications, can we? Remember, the burden of proof
lies upon the accuser.
quote:
>My whole thing is: Anyone can mod away if they want. Just don't cheat on
>Xbox Live! If a mod on an Xbox invalidates the next 11 months of a paid
>Live! subscription, tough cookies. If it costs someone their precious
>gamertag, tough. Hopefully those who try to circumvent the system to cheat
>will end up with that result.
I fully agree with that statement. Unlike the console hardware itself,
the Xbox Live service does have a "no hardware modification" clause in
the written service agreement.
--
A: Because it disturbs the logical flow of a message.
Q: Why is top posting a sloppy form of writing?
|
| |
|
|