quote:

---

>From my experience there are two classes of gamers...

quote:

---

> Here's an idea... before you stake the future of your company on a new
> controller design you might want to run a few focus groups and see if
> people really are turned off by "complicated" controller designs. The
> success of the PS1 and PS2 would seem to disprove that theory, even as
> the controllers became MORE complicated (being able to push in on the
> analog sticks for example).

quote:

---

>
> In the end this may end up being the same fate of the Revolution
> controller. "Perfect for Mario 128, but awful for anything else."
>
> - Jordan

quote:

---

> "Jordan" <lundj@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:1126894629.970060.117170@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...

quote:

---

> Nintendo have completely lost their f#cking minds!

quote:

---

> To me the controller is inherently fascinating. I don't care what are the
> extra target groups, this controller seems to hold a lot of promise, and I
> would love to try it out.

quote:

---

> Mind you, I can't imagine playing Metroid Prime without a lock ability. What
> about "jumping around" enemies? Also, my hands have the MP control scheme
> ingrained, so I am not sure if I want to play it any other way.

quote:

---

> Retro would allow both controllers if they are smart.

quote:

---

> "Throughout the history of game development, the game control mechanism
> has become more and more sophisticated," Iwata explained. "Perhaps
> those who have quit gaming or who have never played games look at the
> game controller and think it's too difficult to play, even before they
> dare to touch it."
>
> "In order to expand the gaming population, it is taken for granted that
> we need to offer games to satisfy veteran gamers. At the same time, I
> believe that we need to make a new proposal, so that those who do not
> play games can say, 'I can do it' and, 'I want to touch it.'"
>
> Here's an idea... before you stake the future of your company on a new
> controller design you might want to run a few focus groups and see if
> people really are turned off by "complicated" controller designs.

quote:

---

> The
> success of the PS1 and PS2 would seem to disprove that theory, even as
> the controllers became MORE complicated (being able to push in on the
> analog sticks for example).

quote:

---

>
> 1) People who grew up playing games and still play games as adults
> (that would be most of you reading this post.)
>
> 2) Kids who will play anything they can get their hands on.
>
> A third class has been emerging over the past few years... bored baby
> boomers who are addicted to Windows solitaire, hearts, freecell and
> online poker games.
>
> None of these groups seems to be to be dissuaded by "difficulty." None
> of them.

quote:

---

> So who, exactly, is Nintendo trying to target with this?

quote:

---

> I could see a slim-line controller being useful for RPGs where a lot of
> time is spent walking around, but you know what? Someone else already
> thought of that back in the PS1 days...
>
> http://shopping.yahoo.com/p:ASCII%2...sory:1951013446
>
> http://www.lik-sang.com/info.php?ca...3e42dbd82f93108
>
> http://www.ddrgame.com/ps2oneharpgc.html
>
> I think Nintendo's thinking went awry with the N64. The console failed
> pretty miserably compared to the PS1, even the Saturn did better in
> Japan, and it looks like now Nintendo feels it was result of the
> controller being "too complicated" rather than just being a bad design.

quote:

---

> Here's a good commentary on the N64 controller problem:
>
> http://www.playphoria.com/features/...ler-ergonomics/
>
> "To their credit, Nintendo made some excellent innovations on this
> controller. The analog stick was the perfect way to control Mario in
> 3D, and remains the industry standard method of moving a character in a
> 3D space. Nintendo also immediately understood the camera problems
> inherent in games that did not have a fixed point-of-view; the result
> being camera-specific control buttons.
>
> But that's where the good ends. The problem with this controller are
> all directly related to the fact that Nintendo decided to put this
> analog stick on a third arm, and these problems are whoppers. With the
> d-pad on one arm and the analog stick on another, it either forced
> developers to choose one control method and stick to it, or it forced
> players to move their hands back and forth. It also added the
> Z-trigger, ostensibly to make gun games like Goldeneye more immersive;
> a closer inspection will see that it only makes up for the fact that if
> you're using the analog stick, the left shoulder button is completely
> unreachable. Finally, the control's crippling lack of buttons forced
> developers to eschew camera movement to use the c-buttons for other
> purposes, but these buttons, not being designed for that kind of play,
> were too small and close together to even be remotely comfortable to
> use.
>
> This controller was perfect for Mario 64, but awful for anything else."

quote:

---

> In the end this may end up being the same fate of the Revolution
> controller. "Perfect for Mario 128, but awful for anything else."

quote:

---

>
> "Jordan" <lundj@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:1126894629.970060.117170@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>
> Nintendo have completely lost their f#cking minds!

quote:

---

> In alt.games.video.sony-playstation2 Boody Bandit
> <boodybandit@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> My first thought on seeing the..."controller":
>
> I do NOT want to use my TV remote as a game controller!

quote:

---

>"Jordan" <lundj@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>
>You honestly think Nintendo didn't? Are you saying Miyamoto and Carmack are
>retards of the industry?

quote:

---

>
>Think of the most successful games and tell me what was so sophisticated or
>necessarily complex about their controls? They've always been the games
>that were simple to control.

quote:

---

[vbcol=seagreen]
>
>That's because you are looking at those "two" classes of gamers from your
>EXPERIENCE meaning those that were not dissuaded by convoluted controls.
>It's pretty easy to see the error in your logic, no?

quote:

---

<snip>[vbcol=seagreen]
>
>That's one opinion, and one that I'd bet not too many subscribe to. What's
>your point?

quote:

---

> In alt.games.video.sony-playstation2 Boody Bandit <boodybandit@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> My first thought on seeing the..."controller":
>
> I do NOT want to use my TV remote as a game controller!
>

quote:

---

>
> The new controller could be good for some games. But ALL of them?

quote:

---

> It's
> sort of similar to how all DS games MUST use the touch screen for
> something...

quote:

---

>
>
> I guess we'll have to wait and see. Again, I can't see using
> that...controller...for all games.

quote:

---

>
> How does Carmack figure into this?

quote:

---

>
> Successful games tend to have polished control schemes that /feel/
> simple, but aren't necessarily simple to implement.

quote:

---

>
>
> I agree. Nintendo is saying that they're targeting people who
> _could_ be gamers but _aren't currently_.
>
> <snip>
>
> I completely agree with Jordan that the N64 controller was awful.
> I think his point was that the N64 marked a low point in Nintendo's
> concern for _usability_ and that has extended to this day.

quote:

---

> I'm not sure I agree with that latter point. If done well, like,
> say, the use of the stylus in Nintendogs, I could believe they'll do very
> well with the Revolution controller.

quote:

---

> Close, ever since the end of the N64 Nintendo has been saying "Well,
> people must want simple games! We need to make games simpler!"
>
> The DS and the Revolution controller are just the latest
> implementations. We saw it with the Gamecube controller being reduced
> (effectively) to one central button. Then the conga controller expanded
> on it with only 3 gameplay functions (right and left conga, microphone.
> 4 if you count both congas at once.)
>
> The side effect is that they are in last place.

quote:

---

> They are innovating in
> a direction opposite to the movement of the industry.

quote:

---

> This is the same
> path Sega went down at the end, with the Samda De Amigo controller, the
> Seaman microphone and the Rez vibrator.

quote:

---

> The DS is doing well from a sales perspective... but from a games
> perspective?
>
> (Whistling)

quote:

---

> Um, yeah, we're still waiting.

quote:

---

> Advance Wars looks good, but it doesn't
> look that different from AW 1 and 2 on the GBA. Metroid? Delayed to
> 2006. Animal Crossing? Delayed until they figure out wireless
> networking.
>
> Oh, I guess if you want a virtual puppy farm the DS is right there for
> you...

quote:

---

> On Fri, 16 Sep 2005 22:24:50 -0000, Doug Jacobs wrote:
>
>
> Doug, you slow brained numbskull, it's not a TV remote. It may look like
> one, and I understand how that may have confused you, but try to read the
> words which came with the colourful pictures, you might be pleasantly
> surprised.

quote:

---

>
> 1) People who grew up playing games and still play games as adults
> (that would be most of you reading this post.)
>
> 2) Kids who will play anything they can get their hands on.
>
> A third class has been emerging over the past few years... bored baby
> boomers who are addicted to Windows solitaire, hearts, freecell and
> online poker games.
>
> None of these groups seems to be to be dissuaded by "difficulty." None
> of them.
>
> So who, exactly, is Nintendo trying to target with this?

quote:

---

> The side effect is that they are in last place. They are innovating in
> a direction opposite to the movement of the industry.

quote:

---

>"Andrew Ryan Chang" <archang@sfu.ca> wrote in message
>
>Carmack, along with Miyamoto, and scores others, feel that game controls are
>becoming convoluted and distract from the game itself.

quote:

---

>
>Example?

quote:

---

>
> Ultimately that might not be a bad thing. Nintendo will surely be in last
> place again in the next generation, because this doesn't seem like a game
> machine that's going to appeal to the masses. It's going to appeal to
> Nintendo diehards, who seem to be the only people who are buying their
> machines and games these days, and to open-minded veteran gamers willing to
> try something new. It might also appeal to non-gamers, but not to a great
> enough extent to convert a whole new segment of the population to gaming.

quote:

---

> "Jordan" <lundj@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>
>
> It's games are getting better marks than the limited offering of the PSP,
> so yes. It's doing quite well.
>
>
> Well, sorry for you.
>
>
> Weak response. The DS is killing with the games. Nintendogs is killing
> anything on the PSP in sales. DS was right on target with consumers and
> developers.
>
> Where are the PSP games, BTW?
>

quote:

---

> Nintendo diehards aren't just the ones making the DS a sucess, female
> gamers and old folks too. Your list of people who aren't "the masses"
> seems to include an awful lot of people

quote:

---

> Sony and Microsoft are going to be put in a very
> difficult position if the controller really does offer a superior
> interface, they will be forced to play catch up or sit still with
> consoles that can't play FPS, RTS'S etc half as well as Nintendo's
> machine.

quote:

---

> greenyammo wrote:
>
>
>
>
> That's because of one game: Nintendogs. Female and/or older non-gamers
> aren't buying the DS for Need for Speed or Mario or Advance Wars, they're
> buying it for a virtual puppy or some of those crazy Japanese learning
> games.

quote:

---

> of doing well with non-gamers. But it will never do quite as well with
> non-gamers as the DS for the simple reason you can't throw it in your purse
> when you go shopping.
>
>
>
>
> That's true. But by the same token, if this turns out to be Power Glove 2.0
> or Virtual Boy 2.0, Nintendo is essentially finished as a console maker.
> It'll all depend on how well it works (it can't be hit and miss like the
> Power Glove or the Eye Toy is, it will have to work flawlessly) and what
> developers do with the games. I honestly do NOT want to play a Zelda game
> that has me swinging the controller around to mimic a sword, and I don't
> think a lot of other people will either.

quote:

---

>

quote:

---

> realistic water and lighting effects, massive environments, accurate
> destruction and physics models for every object in the environment, and
> multiplayer online modes with chat and without lag. The most amazing
> controller in the world won't be worth sh*t if all you can use it for
> is a handful of Nintendo titles that look and play just like the
> GameCube versions, along with more Pokemon and more Mario Party games.
>

quote:

---

> There is a dearth of PSP games, the last significant release I think
> was Coded Arms, but this Summer has been bad for all game machines.
>
> As for killling in sales... I think I mentioned this earlier in group
> #2 - Kids who will play anything they can get their hands on. Below a
> certain age there is no discerning quality in a game it's all "Look! A
> puppy!"
>
> Gamerankings shows 30 PSP games. If you assume a standard grading
> scheme (90% = excellent, 80%+ = good, 70%+ = average, below 70% =
> "needs improvement") then 8/30 (26.6%) are above average. 10/30 are
> average (33.3%) while 12 (40%) aren't exactly up to snuff.
>
> Compare this with the Nintendo DS which also has 30 titles on GR, but 3
> of them are Nintendogs which means there are actually 28 individual
> games:
>
> 8 games above average, however 3 of those are Nintendogs and one (the
> best) just now came out. 5/28 = 17.8% (10% lower and almost half as
> many as on the PSP.)
>
> A further 10 are average, just as on the PSP. 35.7%. Which means the
> remaining 12 titles (42.8%) for lack of a better term... suck.
>
> The two are more or less equal in average and sucky games. But there
> are more PSP games that are worth playing than on the DS.
>
> - Jordan
>

quote:

---

> The fact of the matter is none of the DS games will outsell GTA: LCS and
> that is a fact that it would take a moron to dispute.

quote:

---

> The two are more or less equal in average and sucky games. But there
> are more PSP games that are worth playing than on the DS.

quote:

---

>
> The tuning of inertia, say, in any 3D platformer.

quote:

---

> Or take Devil
> May Cry's reasonably well-tuned scheme for not changing the player char's
> direction when the camera angle switches.

quote:

---

> These things, well done, feel
> good but aren't very simple to implement.

quote:

---

>
>That's software, not the controls.

quote:

---

>
>
>That one is simple. Very simple.

quote:

---

> Fred Said:
> "You honestly think Nintendo didn't? Are you saying Miyamoto and
> Carmack are
> retards of the industry? "
>
> The key quote is from Iwata himself:
>
> "Perhaps those who have quit gaming or who have never played games look
> at the
> game controller and think it's too difficult to play, even before they
> dare to touch it."
>
> Pretty important word: "perhaps". "We don't know if this is really true
> or not, but we think that people stop gaming because the controller is
> just too hard to use! We have no studies that show this, and we didn't
> ask anyone who used to play games, but that's what we think so we're
> going with it!"

quote:

---

> On the bright side... I did see this which shows they may not be
> complete idiots:

quote:

---

> Well, one really positive thing in my opinion is how the controller will
> be sensed by the two items on either side of the set. Assuming this can
> be made to be very accurate (possibly a big assumption) this will allow
> light gun games to be made again.

quote:

---

[vbcol=seagreen]
[vbcol=seagreen]
> Uhhh... you don't think software is involved with the controls at all?
> WTF?

quote:

---

>
> Oh, good, we have a programmer here.

quote:

---

> I suppose you've done this yourself?

quote:

---

> You seem to know so much about it.

quote:

---

> "Andrew Ryan Chang" <archang@sfu.ca> wrote
> The question at hand was controls. Which popular game has a difficult
> control scheme?

quote:

---

>
> Hmm, a lot of people complained about Metroid Prime's control scheme.

quote:

---

> -Any "light gun" type shooter that tries to have a mode for normal
> controllers has an awkward control scheme.

quote:

---

> -RTS games tend to be awkward with a controller

quote:

---

> - Ever write a letter in Animal Crossing? Talk about awkward. It was very
> frustrating to write letters.

quote:

---

> Doug, you slow brained numbskull, it's not a TV remote. It may look like
> one, and I understand how that may have confused you, but try to read the
> words which came with the colourful pictures, you might be pleasantly
> surprised.

quote:

---

>
> So are you happy being fred's sock puppet?

quote:

---

> I didn't say the new controller *IS* a TV remote. I said it *LOOKS LIKE*
> one. It's called a simile.

quote:

---

>
> My first thought on seeing the..."controller":
>
> I do NOT want to use my TV remote as a game controller!

quote:

---

> You'll learn about them in 1st or 2nd grade, so
> don't feel too bad if you didn't understand my post.

quote:

---

> Hmm, a lot of people complained about Metroid Prime's control scheme.
> -Any "light gun" type shooter that tries to have a mode for normal
> controllers has an awkward control scheme.
> -RTS games tend to be awkward with a controller (but even the Revolution's
> point and click won't get all the shortcut keys possible with a keyboard).
> - Ever write a letter in Animal Crossing? Talk about awkward. It was very
> frustrating to write letters. The DS should solve that pretty well, not sure
> about the Revolution.

quote:

---

> And while using the Revolution controller may be
> easier than using a game stick to control an RTS, realistically, the most
> effective control scheme for such games would be voice activated.

quote:

---

> I worry Nintendo will force
> developers to use these controllers for *all* game situations - even when
> the resulting product is awkward and clusmy.

quote:

---

>"James Robert Leek" <jrleek@soda.csua.berkeley.edu> wrote
>
>Amazingly stupid statement, my friend. Quit grasping at straws and just
>answer the question.

quote:

---

>
>Yes.
>Damn, you are amazingly stupid...
>
>The camera transformation is applied to the world coordinates. To simply
>apply the character control to the pre-transformed coordinates is beyond
>simple, because it is less work...

quote:

---

[vbcol=seagreen]
[vbcol=seagreen]
[vbcol=seagreen]
> I wasn't the guy who made the initial response (you seemed to have mixed
> this up.)

quote:

---

> I was mocking you because your statment held an implicit
> assumption that software is utterly divided from controls.

quote:

---

> Perhaps what you meant was 'phisics' not software?

quote:

---

> It's pretty much all done in
> software. I would say that since the inertia your character experiances
> directly effects how you control him, I would call that part of the
> controls.

quote:

---

> However, I would have used a different example, such as "Super
> Mario Brothers 2."

quote:

---

> Anyway, you want an answer to the question? Sure. In the old days
> 3D racing games were tricky because standard controllers were digital
> input only. For example, if the user pushes 'left' how far left do you
> really want the car to go? Is the user just changing lanes, or is he
> actually changing direction? One game that did this poorly was Checkered
> Flag on the Atari Jaguar. They used a simple rule in all cases. (You can
> look up the rule online) Other games, such as Sega's Virtua Racing
> Deluxe,
> used a more naunced approach that felt simplier to the user, but
> usually did what they wanted. The act of adjustmenting a system to make
> it
> feel good is often refered to as 'tuning.' I belive the origial poster
> was
> saying tuning is tricky. I agree. Try out Tuxkart on linux to see what
> I mean.

quote:

---

>
> Now, I played "Devil May Cry" once for 5 minutes 3 years ago, I don't
> really know much about the game. (Again, I didn't use it as an example)
> However, It's trivial to show that your statement is false.

quote:

---

> In programming
> it is always less work to apply the same rule in all cases. Here is why,
> (in pseudocode) the normal case would be:
>
> User inputs direction
> transform world coordinates based on camera
> Move character
>
> However, in our new control scheme we have a special case, when the camera
> moves we use the old camera coordiates in the transformation. So now we
> have:
>
> User inputs direction
> if(camera_change) {
> transform with old coordinates
> } else {
> transform with camera coordinates
> }
> move character

quote:

---

> As you can see, at the very least, we need an extra 'if' statement
> and we need to keep around the old coordinates as long as we need them.
> This is not easier for the programmer. Of course, in my simple case here,
> it's not that much harder, but it is certainly not easier.

quote:

---

> lol. Dummie Jacobs assumes that anyone that calls him out for being stupid
> is somehow supporting me, as if... lol. What a retard.

quote:

---

[vbcol=seagreen]
> Oh yeah? Here's your post...

quote:

---

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
[vbcol=seagreen]
> There's no simile. There's perhaps a analogy, but it would be, as the
> respondant pointed out, the ranting of a slow brained numbskull.

quote:

---

> "Doug Jacobs" <djacobs@shell.rawbw.com> wrote

quote:

---

[vbcol=seagreen]
> OMG, that's so stupid sounding. Tell us why it isn't. Thanks.

quote:

---

[vbcol=seagreen]
> Again, explain why that isn't stupid to say that Nintendo would force people
> to use it?

quote:

---

> "Mattinglyfan" <nyyankees@comcast.net> wrote
>
>
> I'll take that bet right now, and if I win, you have to change your name
> to "Mattinglyfan, the moron".
>

quote:

---

> "Mattinglyfan" <nyyankees@comcast.net> wrote
>
>
> I'll take that bet right now, and if I win, you have to change your name
> to "Mattinglyfan, the moron".
>

quote:

---

> "Fred Liken" <nothanks@toocoolforschool.com> wrote in message
> news:432ed5d5$0$213$bb4e3ad8@newscene.com...
>
>
>
> BTW, Madden will outsell 95% of the DS crap as well.

quote:

---

>
>

quote:

---

[vbcol=seagreen]
[vbcol=seagreen]
> And if I win, "Fred Liken, the idiot"? Are we on?

quote:

---

>
> BTW, Madden will outsell 95% of the DS crap as well.

quote:

---

> There is a dearth of PSP games, the last significant release I think
> was Coded Arms, but this Summer has been bad for all game machines.
>
> As for killling in sales... I think I mentioned this earlier in group
> #2 - Kids who will play anything they can get their hands on. Below a
> certain age there is no discerning quality in a game it's all "Look! A
> puppy!"
>
> Gamerankings shows 30 PSP games. If you assume a standard grading
> scheme (90% = excellent, 80%+ = good, 70%+ = average, below 70% =
> "needs improvement") then 8/30 (26.6%) are above average. 10/30 are
> average (33.3%) while 12 (40%) aren't exactly up to snuff.

quote:

---

> Compare this with the Nintendo DS which also has 30 titles on GR, but 3
> of them are Nintendogs which means there are actually 28 individual
> games:

quote:

---

> 8 games above average, however 3 of those are Nintendogs and one (the
> best) just now came out. 5/28 = 17.8% (10% lower and almost half as
> many as on the PSP.)
>
> A further 10 are average, just as on the PSP. 35.7%. Which means the
> remaining 12 titles (42.8%) for lack of a better term... suck.

quote:

---

>I don't have to be a game designer to know bad marketing when I see it.

quote:

---

> To shrug your shoulders and say "Hey, I don't know, maybe people just
> see them controllers and go 'NO WAY! I'm not touching THAT!'" doesn't
> make any sense and doesn't map to any gamer attitude I've ever
> encountered.

quote:

---

> It's like Coke pulling the plug on Coke 2 years before they could have
> done a "100th Anniversary". It's (potentially) a huge blunder.

quote:

---

> The best
> case scenario is that everyone buys the controller docking station and
> forgets the extra capabilities of the controller even exist.

quote:

---

>
>
> You want me to explain the opposite of my last statement?

quote:

---

>
[vbcol=seagreen]
> Again, fred, you're asking me to debate the opposite of what I'm stating.

quote:

---

> intuitive and gets many new people into games by reducing the arbitrary
> barriers you seem so keen on keeping up.

quote:

---

>
> Cone on now, fred, with the exception of your new friend here, you're the
> only one who comes out flinging insults in response to every single post
> of mine.

quote:

---

>
>
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

quote:

---

>
> Sorry, fred, try again. Similes compare two unlike items using "like" or
> "as". Look it up.

quote:

---

> I used a simile in a sarcastic tone.

quote:

---

> In any event, from an unbiased perspective of someone who owns neither
> system, it appears they each have about the same amount of good games
> and the same amount of bad games. If you are interested in a handheld
> you cant go wrong with either.

quote:

---

> Well, now that you mention it, RTS games on the PC are ridiculously
> complicated and one of the reasons I don't play them. There are so many
> shortcuts and hotkeys that I didn't want to have to memorize lots of keys
> just to be able to be fast enough to complete a map. And even when you
> take away the hotkeys, you've still got lots of menus to go through to
> have the same options.

quote:

---

> And now that I get your point about complicated versus bad controls:
>
> - Most strategy games, turn based or real time have complicated controls.
> This is because they're complicated games. There are many many menus
> (navigating menus is part of control) in most strategy titles making them
> take a long time to learn and often a long time to play.

quote:

---

> Not everyone is interested in this level of complexity. Good golly, the
> difficulties of creating a roller coaster in Roller Coaster Tycoon.

quote:

---

> - Most RPGs are complex. I've had non-gamers look over my shoulder as I
> went through some menus on X-men Legends and complan it was too
> complicated,

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> so that should tell you something about what a non-gamer would say about a
> Final Fantasy game or a tactical RPG.

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>
> Your chicken little comments are ignorant, though.

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> The system will already
> come with the necessary parts to play games normally. Games won't need the
> add on cradle to be ported to it. You really don't think there will be a
> standard input scheme that won't be used for ported games? Amazingly
> ignorant.

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> Fred Liken wrote:
>
> No more than your constant damage control. I must say I've never seen
> you flail away like this before.

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>
> And you certainly are amazingly loyal to Nintendo.

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> "This is why someone always needs to double check your figures when you
> delve into this non-sense, because they are usually slanted to favor
> your system of choice. Whether it was the Xbox back in the day, or the
> PSP now.
>
> Gamerankings doesn't show 30 PSP games as you suggested, they show more
> than 30. They show 35 games with at least 5 reviews, and 48 games with
> at least 1 review. "
>
> Almost forgot... I used the default settings in Gamerankings (20
> reviews minimum). You're right though, I should have mentioned that.
> Setting it to show games with only one review isn't exactly
> statistically significant. You know how fast Gamerankings changes as
> new reviews come in. I used the default of 20 reviews because that's
> going to produce the most stable scoring.

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> Now if I had set one side for 20 and the other side for 1 you could
> argue I was skewing the results, but I used the same standard for both.

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> that should tell you something about what a non-gamer would say about a
> Final Fantasy game

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> "Mattinglyfan" <nyyankees@comcast.net> wrote
>
>
> Madden on the DS will outsell 95% of the PSP games as well.

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> something to rave about. Nintendogs has outsold the PSP games.

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> Hardly
>
> You are right, but look at the limited offerings by both systems. When GTA
> hits, it will be titanic in proportion to any handheld game in the last 10
> years.