Chess politics - Scholastic touch-move

Author

Scholastic touch-move

David Kane

2006-08-19, 7:36 pm

"The Historian" <Spamscone@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1156023666.218626.202790@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...

quote:

>
> How more blunt must I be? There is a nationally-known scholastic chess
> organizer in Pittsburgh that 'waives' touch-move in his tournaments.

A little blunter please. What rule is used in place of touch-move in these
tournaments?

Is it your position that the appeal of chess to school children
is related to moving a piece other than the one touched?
If so, what percentage of chess' popularity in that age group do you
think is attributable to that factor?

Do you consider it relevant information that every single
scholastic tournament that I have observed has been played
with "touch-move" rules? The majority of these have been
filled to capacity. Although I've seen a number of touch-move
disputes, I've never heard anyone suggest that the rule is
a significant factor in tournament draw.

Did you know that in online chess, presumably populated
with adults, there are provisions for takebacks?

Perhaps you can take all these factors into account
when you reformulate your grand theory of scholastic
chess destroying civilization as we know it.

Forrest Marler

2006-08-19, 11:37 pm

What we sometimes do in the Houston area scholastic events is use
touch-release in sections that are not USCF rated. We make a big deal
about requiring touch move in the rated sections and this has worked well
in preparing the unrated players for touch-move in upcoming events.

Forrest

In article <G_6dnduOOPOeAXrZnZ2dnUVZ_q6dnZ2d@comcast.com>, "David Kane"
<davidekane@comcast.net> wrote:

quote:

> "The Historian" <Spamscone@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1156023666.218626.202790@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> A little blunter please. What rule is used in place of touch-move in these
> tournaments?
>
> Is it your position that the appeal of chess to school children
> is related to moving a piece other than the one touched?
> If so, what percentage of chess' popularity in that age group do you
> think is attributable to that factor?
>
> Do you consider it relevant information that every single
> scholastic tournament that I have observed has been played
> with "touch-move" rules? The majority of these have been
> filled to capacity. Although I've seen a number of touch-move
> disputes, I've never heard anyone suggest that the rule is
> a significant factor in tournament draw.
>
> Did you know that in online chess, presumably populated
> with adults, there are provisions for takebacks?
>
> Perhaps you can take all these factors into account
> when you reformulate your grand theory of scholastic
> chess destroying civilization as we know it.

The Historian

2006-08-20, 2:35 am

Forrest Marler wrote:

quote:

> What we sometimes do in the Houston area scholastic events is use
> touch-release in sections that are not USCF rated. We make a big deal
> about requiring touch move in the rated sections and this has worked well
> in preparing the unrated players for touch-move in upcoming events.
>
> Forrest

Hi Forrest,

In Pittsburgh, the largest organizer waives touch move in rated games,
based on the age of the player. So the end result is that if an older
child plays a younger one, the younger doesn't need to play by touch
move, and the older kid does. Your arrangements in Houston seem much
better.

I'd try to answer David Kane's arguments, if I could find any amid all
the scholastic straw he's tossing about.

David Kane

2006-08-20, 2:35 am

"The Historian" <Spamscone@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1156047328.162230.177090@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...

quote:

>
> Forrest Marler wrote:
>
> Hi Forrest,
>
> In Pittsburgh, the largest organizer waives touch move in rated games,
> based on the age of the player. So the end result is that if an older
> child plays a younger one, the younger doesn't need to play by touch
> move, and the older kid does. Your arrangements in Houston seem much
> better.
>
> I'd try to answer David Kane's arguments, if I could find any amid all
> the scholastic straw he's tossing about.
>

Well, you still haven't clearly explained what is
meant by "waiving" the rules (presumably because
doing so wouldn't support your prejudice), nor how
this relates to the appeal of scholastic chess. Nor have
you explained how there is something sacred about
"touch-move". Though I hadn't heard of the
"touch-release" variant described above, everyone
I'm sure has heard of "touch-clock", for example,
and few seem to buy into your theory that it is an
indication of barbarians at the gate.

The argument, simply, is that scholastic chess' popularity
is not achieved by some kind of crude popularizing of
the game. The rule adaptations that are made are
generally small and of the sort that are also accepted
by adults.

The mystery remains unanswered. Why are you
so terrified of chess moving towards the mainstream?

The Historian

2006-08-20, 2:35 am

David Kane wrote:

quote:

> "The Historian" <Spamscone@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1156047328.162230.177090@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> Well, you still haven't clearly explained what is
> meant by "waiving" the rules...

I thought you could read English. Pardon me for my mistake.

(presumably because

quote:

> doing so wouldn't support your prejudice), nor how
> this relates to the appeal of scholastic chess.

If you set the bar low enough, everyone gets in. The tournament
headcount will go up. Isn't that the kiddie-herder's wet dream?

Nor have

quote:

> you explained how there is something sacred about
> "touch-move".

It's only a requirement of tournament over the board chess world-wide.
It's only a rule that's been observed for centuries. It's only a
practice that separates serious players from those who don't take the
game seriously.

Though I hadn't heard of the

quote:

> "touch-release" variant described above, everyone
> I'm sure has heard of "touch-clock", for example,
> and few seem to buy into your theory that it is an
> indication of barbarians at the gate.

So much straw, Phil, err, David, and so little time.... where did I
write anything on "touch-clock"? Please post it.

quote:

> The argument, simply, is that scholastic chess' popularity
> is not achieved by some kind of crude popularizing of
> the game. The rule adaptations that are made are
> generally small and of the sort that are also accepted
> by adults.

I don't see any indication that adults are playing organized OTB chess
without the touch move rule. But perhaps you have an example to share.

quote:

> The mystery remains unanswered. Why are you
> so terrified of chess moving towards the mainstream?

Who said chess was not "mainstream?" Mixing up "mainstream" and "lowest
common denominator" is your problem, not mine. Meanwhile, I leave you
to construct your strawman.

David Kane

2006-08-20, 5:40 am

"The Historian" <Spamscone@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1156053990.965713.222150@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...

quote:

>
> David Kane wrote:
well[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> I thought you could read English. Pardon me for my mistake.

Why don't you post the actual rules for the
scholastic tournament in question so we can all
figure out how ridiculous they are? Your claim that there
is something wrong with them is worth very
little because it's the only "evidence" that you supply
to support your prejudice. Mind you, even if some
scholastic organizers have ridiculous practices,
it doesn't make your general case.

quote:

> (presumably because
>
> If you set the bar low enough, everyone gets in. The tournament
> headcount will go up. Isn't that the kiddie-herder's wet dream?

But scholastic tournaments outdraw adult tournaments
even when touch move is applied. So much for that
theory.

quote:

>
> Nor have
>
> It's only a requirement of tournament over the board chess world-wide.
> It's only a rule that's been observed for centuries. It's only a
> practice that separates serious players from those who don't take the
> game seriously.
>
> Though I hadn't heard of the
>
> So much straw, Phil, err, David, and so little time.... where did I
> write anything on "touch-clock"? Please post it.

You didn't. The point is that different "touch" rules are
used for various chess variants, and nobody but you seems
to have a problem with it.

quote:

>
>
> I don't see any indication that adults are playing organized OTB chess
> without the touch move rule. But perhaps you have an example to share.

I see little evidence (none first hand) that scholastic OTB
tournaments aren't being played without some reasonable
"touch" rules either.

BTW, takeback requests are quite common in online play.

quote:

>
>
> Who said chess was not "mainstream?" Mixing up "mainstream" and "lowest
> common denominator" is your problem, not mine. Meanwhile, I leave you
> to construct your strawman.
>

You are correct that in one respect scholastic chess
does cater to the lowest common denominator. Players,
even if they are objectively unskilled, are still generally
welcomed to the fray.

The adult chess world operates on a different
lowest common denominator principle, though.
You let the losers and misfits rule the roost.
You may claim to dislike Sam Sloan,
but, in truth, he exists because he caters to
the likes of you.

The Historian

2006-08-20, 7:37 pm

David Kane wrote:

quote:

> "The Historian" <Spamscone@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1156053990.965713.222150@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> Why don't you post the actual rules for the
> scholastic tournament in question so we can all
> figure out how ridiculous they are?

I've checked the Pittsburgh Youth Chess website, and I can't find them
there now. Either the practice has been dropped, or it's being kept low
key. Bruce Leverett confirmed previously that the practice of
disregarding touch move existed.

Your claim that there

quote:

> is something wrong with them is worth very
> little because it's the only "evidence" that you supply
> to support your prejudice. Mind you, even if some
> scholastic organizers have ridiculous practices,
> it doesn't make your general case.

I'm glad you agree that disregarding touch move is a bad idea. As for
not making my case, doesn't it help the headcount to have more
'players' eligible for the tournament? Again, lower the bar enough and
everyone gets in.

quote:

>
> But scholastic tournaments outdraw adult tournaments
> even when touch move is applied. So much for that
> theory.

I do wish you would learn to read. Your response doesn't follow my
comment.

quote:

You 'forgot' - if that is truly the word - to answer this one.
[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> You didn't. The point is that different "touch" rules are
> used for various chess variants, and nobody but you seems
> to have a problem with it.

Ah, at last! A scholastic person admits their scholastic chess is a
"variant" of the real thing!

quote:

>
> I see little evidence (none first hand) that scholastic OTB
> tournaments aren't being played without some reasonable
> "touch" rules either.
>
> BTW, takeback requests are quite common in online play.

You keep dwelling on online play, as if it means anything in a
discussion of OTB practice.

quote:

[vbcol=seagreen]
> You are correct that in one respect scholastic chess
> does cater to the lowest common denominator. Players,
> even if they are objectively unskilled, are still generally
> welcomed to the fray.

David, I was as unskilled as they came when I began tournament play in
1996. I was welcomed to my local club and USCF tournaments. Perhaps
your experience was different? I'm sorry that as an adult chessplayer
people were rude to you and made you bitter.

quote:

> The adult chess world operates on a different
> lowest common denominator principle, though.
> You let the losers and misfits rule the roost.

As opposed to the sterling reputations of scholastic folks? Must I
bring up Richard Peterson, Robert Snyder, Stan Vaughn, Tom Klem, and
Kevin Bachler?

quote:

> You may claim to dislike Sam Sloan,
> but, in truth, he exists because he caters to
> the likes of you.

Sam Sloan's existence passeth all understanding. And he represents no
one but himself.

David Kane

2006-08-20, 7:37 pm

"The Historian" <Spamscone@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1156081739.796695.233430@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...

quote:

>
> David Kane wrote:
>
> I've checked the Pittsburgh Youth Chess website, and I can't find them
> there now. Either the practice has been dropped, or it's being kept low
> key. Bruce Leverett confirmed previously that the practice of
> disregarding touch move existed.

And now it starts to sound more and more like
an urban legend. But of course you'll
provide a cogent explanation as to
how a policy that nobody seems to be
able to describe is at the same time an
important factor in drumming up business.

quote:

>
> Your claim that there
>
> I'm glad you agree that disregarding touch move is a bad idea. As for
> not making my case, doesn't it help the headcount to have more
> 'players' eligible for the tournament? Again, lower the bar enough and
> everyone gets in.

I am not expressing an opinion on touch
move and would be open (a concept no
doubt foreign to you) to hearing the
rationale for other sorts of "touch" rules.
(e.g. touch release mentioned above)
I would guess that there could be any
number of sensible "touch" rules, but whatever
rules are used, they aren't a factor in
tournament popularity.

quote:

>
>
> I do wish you would learn to read. Your response doesn't follow my
> comment.
>
>
> You 'forgot' - if that is truly the word - to answer this one.

What is there to answer? It's just another unsupported and
irrelevant claim on your part.

snipped

quote:

>
> You keep dwelling on online play, as if it means anything in a
> discussion of OTB practice.

GMs play online. Are we now to say that GMs don't fall
into the category of serious chessplayers?

Nonsense can only be defended with nonsense. Quit
while you are behind.

snipped

quote:

>
>
> Sam Sloan's existence passeth all understanding. And he represents no
> one but himself.
>

Like it or not, your ignorant hostility to scholastic
chess is shared by Sloan, Parr and your hero Innes.