Chess politics - Kingston beats dead horse

Author

Kingston beats dead horse

parrthenon@cs.com

2005-04-28, 8:31 pm

TWO CAN PLAY THAT GAME

<You say that Winter never wrote that Campomanes was justified in
stopping the match. He merely criticized and attacked those who wrote
that Campomanes was not justified in stopping the match.> Sam Sloan

Taylor Kingston is at it again.

He takes one quote out of context and pretends that Edward Winter
has not said many other things about the termination of the first K-K
match. I'm referring to his lengthy article that went to all the FIDE
nations by FIDE president Florencio Campomanes some 20 years ago. I
don't have it here in Malaysia and will prove my point once someone
sends me a copy. Until them Mr. Kingston can huff and puff and continue
to beat a dead horse.

Two can play the game of selective quotes. For example, before Mr.
Winter began his vicious attack on the 5-time U.S. champion, he wrote
"Larry Evans' journalism is of a superior quality...[he is] normally
one of the sanest and acutest of commentators...Evans is at his best
when recounting contemporary events, whether it be a World
Championship match or one more instance of USCF mismanagement."

Just to quote this fragment, however, would give a skewed view of
the matter --just as Mr. Kingston has done with his quote about
Campomanes.

Mr. Kingston also claimed on this forum that the criticism I cited
from IM Anthony Saidy came from one of Mr. Winter's enemies -- but just
the opposite is true. We are still waiting for Mr. Kingston to
apologize for that whopper.

Here is what IM Saidy noted: "I valued Edward Winter's diligent
work and subscribed to his Chess Notes until it went out of business in
1989. I was grateful to him for pointing out an embarrassing error in
my book The World Of Chess (where I missed the location of Cambridge
Springs only by the width of the Atlantic Ocean). We corresponded for
several years. However, when I had the audacity to correct one of his
errors in translating a Spanish phrase, his huffy reply indicated that
he was alien to the concept of receiving constructive criticism. I
stopped writing after this incident."

When playwright Richard Laurie, a man with no axe to grind,
contradicted Mr. Kingston's versions of events, he mplied that Mr.
Laurie was lying.

And so it goes.

Louis Blair

2005-04-28, 8:31 pm

Larry Parr wrote:

quote:

> ... Taylor Kingston ... takes one quote out
> of context and pretends that Edward Winter
> has not said many other things about the
> termination of the first K-K match. ...

_
What Taylor Kingston actually wrote:

"... Winter has written several dozen
heavily researched pages on the
aborted K-K match of 1984-85. ..."

Louis Blair

2005-04-28, 8:31 pm

Larry Parr wrote:

quote:

> ... Mr. Kingston also claimed on this
> forum that the criticism I cited from
> IM Anthony Saidy came from one of Mr.
> Winter's enemies -- but just the
> opposite is true. We are still waiting
> for Mr. Kingston to apologize for that
> whopper. ...

_
A google search fails to turn up any
Taylor Kingston rgcp notes in April
that contain "Saidy". I could not find
any with "enemies" or "enemy" either.

The best I could do was find a 18 Apr
2005 12:06:08 -0700 Taylor Kingston
rgcm note that quoted Jeremy Spinrad,
referring to "further proof that Goran
is bravely fighting the enemies of all
mankind!"

So where is this "whopper" claim by
Taylor Kingston?

parrthenon@cs.com

2005-04-28, 8:31 pm

TAYLOR KINGSTON IS GRATIFIED

<Thank you, Louis. The search fails to find anything because I never
wrote what Parr claims. Larry Parr is caught out here, committing a
plain, out-and-out lie. This is not his first venture into the
fabrication business. Frankly I am getting rather bored with Parr, but
I have persisted in these and related posts in hopes that his mendacity
would become obvious to other readers here. His cooperation in that
effort has been most gratifying.> Taylor Kingston

Taylor Kingston is right about one thing: this is getting rather
boring and dreary.

In the following post I wrote: "Winter Taylor Kingston seems intent
on beating a dead horse by dredging up favorable quotes about his hero
Edward Winter, but two can play that game."

In response I cited three critics of Mr. Winter:

Date: 24 Apr 2005 08:42:58 -0700
Local: Sun,Apr 24 2005 8:42 am
Subject: Re: Mr. Winter's Humbug

FROM ERIC SCHILLER

"He threatened to sue me over my pointing out the Kolty stuff, and
contacted Cardoza and threatened him with a suit. I simply STRENGTHENED
the article. Winter reesponded with a nasty internet screed, but I
don't think he is going to sue anyone and have no doubt he'd lose. In
any suit about the truth Winter would have to abandon his privacy and
everything would be made public about him. No way. Far as I'm
concerned, it would be worth it to reveal the true Edward Winter to the
chess world."

FROM GM RAYMOND KEENE

"Edward winter exists for sure and was a pupil of julian simpole of
hardinge simpole chess publishers in brighton when julian was a teacher
there. winter is a relatively young man --- he hates me because he once
claimed that kasparov's contribution to bco batsford chess openings was
hosted --- i then auctioned kasparov's handwritten contribution for
charity thus proving i was right .

Winter hates it when someone simply shoots him down irrefutably since
there is no scope for obfuscatory argument-- 50 or so chess players and
experts turned up to the auction and verified that it was indeed by
kasparov-and the manuscript was then auctioned and went to a german
chess player who worked for varta batteries in singapore.

I used to get on fine with winter and even contributed a chapter to one
of his books on world champions until i had the boldness to disagree
with his view on a matter where i knew i was right- and then prove him
wrong -- in public with irrefutable evidence -- he obviously never
forgave me for this humiliation!"

No sane person would devote his life to such trivia nor pursue
irrelevant minutiae with such venom -- nor would a sane person bury his
personality the way winter does. i make my assertion about his sanity
based on what he writes-no sane person wd devote his life to such
trivia nor pursue irrelevant minutiae with such venom -nor would a sane
person bury his personality the way winter does.

FROM IM ANTHONY SAIDY

"I concluded years ago that Winter was deranged. After informing him
that his translation of some foreign phrase was incorrect, he huffily
responded, 'How dare you correct me!''

"PEOPLE WHO DISLIKE WINTER"

Mr. Winter responded in the following posting:

From: "Taylor Kingston" <tkings...@chittenden.com> -
Date: 24 Apr 2005 09:06:47 -0700
Local: Sun,Apr 24 2005 9:06 am
Subject: Sloan on Winter

<NO MATTER HOW MANY EXAMPLES YOU MAY PRODUCE OF PEOPLE WHO DISLIKE
WINTER [emphasis mine] it does not and cannot establish Sloan's
absolute claim >

To refute Mr. Kingston's whopper that all three people I cited were
"people who dislike Winter" I quoted IM Anthony Saidy, who was quite
well disposed toward Mr. Winter for many years, even very friendly:

IM Saidy wrote: "I valued Edward Winter's diligent work and subscribed
to his Chess Notes until it went out of business in 1989. I was
grateful to him for pointing out an embarrassing error in my book The
World Of Chess (where I missed the location of Cambridge Springs only
by the width of the Atlantic Ocean). We corresponded for several years.
However, when I had the audacity to correct one of his errors in
translating a Spanish phrase, his huffy reply indicated that he was
alien to the concept of receiving constructive criticism. I stopped
writing after this incident."

I interpreted "people who dislike Winter" to mean enemies, and I
did NOT place quotation marks around the word or pretend Mr. Kingston
said it (as he alleges). If it pleases him to call me a liar, so be
it. I also wish to return the compliment.

I say he lied through his teeth about trying, under the clock of
secrecy, to get Richard Laurie to retract a letter to Chess Life that
put Kingston and Winter in a bad light.

Mr. Laurie, who had no axe to grind, completely contradicted Mr.
Kingston's version of events. He even went so far as to write to the
editor of Chess Life about not changing his mind because Mr. Kingston
notified him that the editor was expecting to receive such a
retraction.

And so it goes..

Louis Blair

2005-04-29, 12:31 am

Larry Parr wrote:

quote:

> In the following post I wrote: "...
> Taylor Kingston seems intent on beating
> a dead horse by dredging up favorable
> quotes about his hero Edward Winter, but
> two can play that game.
>_
> ... FROM ERIC SCHILLER ...
>_
> ... FROM GM RAYMOND KEENE ...
>_
> ... FROM IM ANTHONY SAIDY ..."
>_
> From: "Taylor Kingston"
>_
> <NO MATTER HOW MANY EXAMPLES YOU MAY
> PRODUCE OF PEOPLE WHO DISLIKE WINTER
> [emphasis mine] it does not and cannot
> establish Sloan's absolute claim >
>_
> To refute Mr. Kingston's whopper
> that all three people I cited were
> "people who dislike Winter" I quoted
> IM Anthony Saidy, who was quite well
> disposed to Mr. Winter for many years,
> ...

_
Here is the relevant portion of Taylor
Kingston's 24 Apr 2005 09:06:47 -0700
note:
VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV
parrthe...@cs.com wrote:

quote:

> Taylor Kingston seems intent on
> beating a dead horse by dredging up
> favorable quotes about his hero
> Edward Winter, but two can play that
> game.

_
No, Larry, I am merely pointing out
the absurdity of Sloan's claims that
"everyone" considers Winter disreputable.
That is an absolute claim, refuted by
even a single contrary example. I have
cited six, and can produce many more.
No matter how many examples you may
produce of people who dislike Winter,
it does not and cannot establish
Sloan's absolute claim.
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
_
First of all, the quote does not assert
that "all three people" dislike Winter.
_
Second, even if we take it as legitimate
to read that into Taylor Kingston's
words, Taylor Kingston used THE PRESENT
TENSE. A statement that IM Saidy "was
quite well disposed to Mr. Winter" in
the past would not contradict the idea
that IM Saidy dislikes Mr. Winter in
the present.

_
Third, Larry Parr wrote:

quote:

> I interpreted "people who dislike
> Winter" to mean enemies, and I did NOT
> place quotation marks around the word

_
Perhaps Richard Nixon felt that anyone
who disliked him was an enemy, but I
doubt that very many today would say
that "enemy" is a fair substitute for
"one who dislikes". The absence of
quotation marks is no excuse for the
distortion of meaning.

_
Fourth, Larry Parr wrote:

quote:

> I did NOT ... pretend Mr. Kingston
> said it (as he alleges).

_
On 25 Apr 2005 00:23:25 -0700, Larry
Parr referred to:
_
"Mr. Kingston's claim that
the criticisms were all penned
by enemies of Mr. Winter"

parrthenon@cs.com

2005-04-29, 12:31 am

CAPTAIN QUEEG STRIKES AGAIN

<No, it said false things about me and Winter. It put Mr. Laurie in a
bad light. I did indeed have hopes of getting him to retract his
falsehoods, but unfortunately, he turned out to have the same aversion
to facts as you do, Larry.>

In The Caine Mutiny, the good captain also claims that his crew is
disloyal and they all spread falsehoods about him as he rubs ball
bearing together while on the witness stand.

Yes, yes, everyone is lying except Taylor Kingston. Even someone who
has absolutely no axe to grind with him.

Yes, yes, everyone else is lying.

parrthenon@cs.com

2005-04-29, 12:31 am

Sam Sloan

2005-04-29, 12:31 am

On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 00:30:30 GMT, Louis Blair <lblai@blackburn.edu>
wrote:

quote:

> No, Larry, I am merely pointing out
>the absurdity of Sloan's claims that
>"everyone" considers Winter disreputable.
>That is an absolute claim, refuted by
>even a single contrary example. I have
>cited six, and can produce many more.
>No matter how many examples you may
>produce of people who dislike Winter,
>it does not and cannot establish
>Sloan's absolute claim.
>AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

In fact, I made no such claim. Why does not Louis Blair produce quotes
which will show that Taylor Kingston is fabricating claims by saying
that I wrote things that I did not write.

Sam Sloan

parrthenon@cs.com

2005-04-29, 12:31 am

HE DID IT FOR LAURIE'S OWN GOOD!

quote:

> I say he lied through his teeth about trying, under the clock of

secrecy, to get Richard Laurie to retract a letter to Chess Life that
put Kingston and Winter in a bad light.> Parr

<No, it said false things about me and Winter. It put Mr. Laurie in a
bad light. I did indeed have hopes of getting him to retract his
falsehoods, but unfortunately, he turned out to have the same aversion
to facts as you do, Larry.>

Yes, Taylor Kingston tried to get playwright Richard Laurie to
retract his letter for Mr. Laurie's own good. To save his own soul
perhaps?

<you may damn your own soul. Repent now.> Kingston to Parr

Louis Blair

2005-04-29, 12:31 am

Larry Parr wrote:

quote:

> In The Caine Mutiny, the good captain
> also claims that his crew is disloyal
> and they all spread falsehoods about him
> as he rubs ball bearing together while on
> the witness stand.
>
> Yes, yes, everyone is lying except
> Taylor Kingston. Even someone who
> has absolutely no axe to grind with him.
>
> Yes, yes, everyone else is lying.

_
"an utterly remorseless liar such as
Stan Booz" - Larry Parr (24 Apr 2005
22:44:00 -0700)
_
"Mr. Bauer lied through his teeth"
- Larry Parr (6 Mar 2005 20:03:17 -0800)
_
"We were lied to." - Larry Parr
(30 Dec 2004 06:56:03 GMT)
_
"Steve Dowd ... lied" - Larry Parr
(21 Dec 2004 00:05:53 GMT)
_
"just another lie" - Larry Parr
(02 Jan 2004 16:01:07 GMT)

Louis Blair

2005-04-29, 12:31 am

Recently, I reproduced the Taylor
Kingston quote:

quote:

> No, Larry, I am merely pointing out
> the absurdity of Sloan's claims that
> "everyone" considers Winter disreputable.

_
Sam Sloan wrote:

quote:

> In fact, I made no such claim. Why
> does not Louis Blair produce quotes
> which will show that Taylor Kingston
> is fabricating claims by saying that
> I wrote things that I did not write.

_
Usually, it is not possible to produce
a quote that demonstrates that something
was not claimed. (It's the standard
problem of trying to prove a negative.)
_
Anyway, I suspect that this is the
Sam Sloan quote that Taylor Kingston
had in mind:
_
"everyone familiar with the
general reputation of Mr.
Winter knows that he is a
person of low repute."
- Sam Sloan (Sat, 23 Apr 2005
20:06:44 GMT)

Sam Sloan

2005-04-29, 3:30 am

On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 02:18:21 GMT, Louis Blair <lblai@blackburn.edu>
wrote:

quote:

>Recently, I reproduced the Taylor
>Kingston quote:
>
>_
>Sam Sloan wrote:
>
>
>_
>Usually, it is not possible to produce
>a quote that demonstrates that something
>was not claimed. (It's the standard
>problem of trying to prove a negative.)
>_
>Anyway, I suspect that this is the
>Sam Sloan quote that Taylor Kingston
>had in mind:
>_
> "everyone familiar with the
> general reputation of Mr.
> Winter knows that he is a
> person of low repute."
> - Sam Sloan (Sat, 23 Apr 2005
> 20:06:44 GMT)

Right. I wrote that Edward Winter has a poor reputation, as indeed he
does. I did not write that "everyone" considers Edwrad Winter to be
disreputable. There can be no doubt that there are a few admirers of
Edward Winter. Taylor Kingston is obviously one of them, assuming that
Taylor Kingston and Edward Winter are not the same person.

In short, Taylor Kingston, who barged into this newsgroup four days
ago declaring that he had the proof that myself, Larry Parr and
several other people are liars, has once again been shown to be a liar
himself.

To give an example, everyone will agree that Willie Sutton, the famous
bank robber, had a bad reputation.

Yet, when he got out of prison for the last time, the Connecticut Bank
and Trust hired Willie Sutton to advertise their bank credit cards on
TV.

Here is a picture of Willie Sutton showing off his bank ATM Card:

http://www.banking.com/aba/profile_0397.htm

So, like Edward Winter, even Willie Sutton had some admirers in spite
of his bad reputation.

Sam Sloan
http://www.samsloan.com/chess.htm

parrthenon@cs.com

2005-04-29, 3:30 am

THE GOTCHA BOYS

Finally, the Messrs. Blair and Kingston thought they could shout
"Gotcha!"

I had told a lie, though Mr. Blair did not seem to use the word as Mr.
Kingston did, and we wonder whether Mr. Blair will take umbrage over
having his more carefully expressed point distorted.

Still, they thought they had me. That's clear enough.

What did they have?

Under a subheading about people who dislike Edward Winter, Mr.
Kingston included Anthony Saidy.

Parser Blair tells us that even though the name Saidy appeared
under the subheading, Mr. Kingston did not specifically denominate that
all of the people under the subheading, so listed and so specified,
disliked Mr. Winter. Etc.

Laughable.

My answer: I assumed, given the atmosphere of the discussion,
that when Mr. Kingston was naming well-known dislikers (?) of Mr.
Winter, including IM
Saidy, that he was talking about enemies.

Given the others listed (Eric Schiller and Ray Keene) it did not
seem a stretch to suggest that the word "enemy" would be synonymous
with someone who dislikes in this discussion. Nor is it a stretch. My
point was spot on.

Tony Saidy had a cordial relationship with Edward Winter and it
ended when Dr. Saidy made a correct correction of something Mr. Winter
wrote. Dr. Saidy has written very seldom since about Winter except to
say on an occasion that the behavior seemed deranged. There is no hint
of dislike or being a enemy. Just the end of something that once was.
This ending or conclusion was very briefly expressed by Dr. Saidy, and
not elaborated upon.

Louis Blair

2005-04-29, 3:30 am

Larry Parr now writes:

quote:

> Under a subheading about people who
> dislike Edward Winter, Mr.
> Kingston included Anthony Saidy.
>_
> Parser Blair tells us that even
> though the name Saidy appeared
> under the subheading, Mr. Kingston
> did not specifically denominate that
> all of the people under the subheading,
> so listed and so specified, disliked
> Mr. Winter. Etc.
>_
> Laughable.

_
Here again, is the Taylor Kingston passage
to which Larry Parr is referring:
VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV
parrthe...@cs.com wrote:

quote:

> Taylor Kingston seems intent on beating
> a dead horse by dredging up favorable
> quotes about his hero Edward Winter,
> but two can play that game.

quote:

> My answer: I assumed, given
> the atmosphere of the discussion,
> that when Mr. Kingston was naming
> well-known dislikers (?) of Mr.
> Winter, including IM Saidy, that he
> was talking about enemies.

_
As everyone can see, the Taylor
Kingston passage was NOT "naming"
dislikers.

_
Larry Parr now writes:

quote:

> Given the others listed
> (Eric Schiller and Ray Keene) it
> did not seem a stretch to suggest
> that the word "enemy" would be
> synonymous with someone who
> dislikes in this discussion. Nor
> is it a stretch. My point was
> spot on.

_
Except that the Taylor Kingston
passage did not "list" Eric
Schiller or Ray Keene either.
It had been Larry Parr who had
done that. Anyway, no matter how
many or how few are listed, "enemy"
is not synonymous with "one who
dislikes".
_
Furthermore, the notion of being
an "enemy" has nothing to do with
the point that Taylor Kingston was
making: Examples of people disliking
Winter do not establish that
"everyone" considers Winter
disreputable.

_
Larry Parr now writes:

quote:

> Dr. Saidy has written very seldom
> since about Winter except to say
> on an occasion that the behavior
> seemed deranged. There is no hint
> of dislike or being a enemy.

_
The beginning of the quote that Larry
Parr actually attributed to Dr. Saidy
(in the note to which Taylor Kingston
had been responding):
_
"I concluded years ago that
Winter was deranged. ..."

Louis Blair

2005-04-29, 3:30 am

Sam Sloan wrote:

quote:

> Taylor Kingston, who barged into this
> newsgroup four days ago declaring that
> he had the proof that myself, Larry Parr
> and several other people are liars, ...

_
"Larry, whether they are outright
lies I can't say, ..." - Taylor
Kingston (22 Apr 2005 15:49:06 -0700)

parrthenon@cs.com

2005-04-29, 3:30 am

NO, NOT EVERYONE AS TAYLOR KINGSTON CLAIMED

quote:

>Anyway, I suspect that this is the Sam Sloan quote that Taylor

Kingston had in mind: "everyone familiar with the general reputation of
Mr. Winter knows that he is a person of low repute." Sam Sloan (Sat,
23 Apr 2005 20:06:44 GMT)> Louis Blair

Foolish me. I accepted Taylor Kingston's account that Sam
claimed everyone regarded Edward Winter as "disreputable." I even gave
Sam a polemical bop on the proboscis. Thanks to Mr. Blair's citation, I
now withdraw the polemical bop.

I happen to think there is divided opinion on Winter. Quite a
few people regard him as dishonest in pursuing his targets, but there
are also many who support him. I can't say what the final balance
might be. I disagree with Sam that a clear conclusion can be reached.

As for Taylor Kingston misconstruing Sam's meaning, one is
tempted to shout liar. Instead, I merely redirect my metaphorical bop
from Mr. Sloan's nasal protrusion to the olfactory appendage of Mr.
Kingston.

parrthenon@cs.com

2005-04-29, 6:36 am

FINALLY SOMETHING TO SINK MY TEETH INTO

<1. Winter has written several dozen heavily researched pages on the
aborted K-K match of 1984-85. These deal mainly with (a) journalists'
reports about the match, checking their factual accuracy, and (b)
various charges made by Kasparov and his supporters, such as that the
match was stopped to save Karpov from imminent defeat, that it was a
flagrant act of favoritism, etc. Winter points out many errors,
misrepresentations, self-contradictions and such, in both areas.>
Taylor Kingston

I want to thank Taylor Kingston for mentioning the Child of
Change review by Edward Winter from which he quotes. I DO have that
review here, and I consider it a prime example of Mr. Winter's
dishonesty when making an argument. It is filled with false
suggestions and omissions of truth. No one reading that review could
conclude that Mr. Winter entertains his claimed agnosticism.

I will analyze this review in a future posting here, noting what
was left out and how these omissions were justified. Finally,
something I can sink my teeth into.

parrthenon@cs.com

2005-04-29, 6:36 am

Larry Tapper

2005-04-29, 8:34 pm

Sam Sloan wrote:
.... >Anyway, I suspect that this is the

quote:

>
> Right. I wrote that Edward Winter has a poor reputation, as indeed he
> does.

Not where I come from, Sam. One could say with justice that Winter has
a general reputation for sarcasm and nitpicking, but certainly not for
mendacity or plagiarism or any comparably serious character flaw. I see
no basis whatsoever for calling him a "person of low repute", as you
do.

quote:

> I did not write that "everyone" considers Edwrad Winter to be

disreputable.

No, you added a qualifier: "everyone who is familiar with the general
reputation of Mr. Winter knows that he is a person of low repute."
Larry Parr apparently takes this to be evidence that Taylor Kingston
misrepresented what you had said. I don't know what the problem is here
--- I know that Parr can read.

quote:

> ...So, like Edward Winter, even Willie Sutton had some admirers in

spite of his bad reputation.

An inane and childish analogy.

Larry T.