Chess politics - Hate Speech?

Author

Hate Speech?

BarbaraVilliers

2005-04-07, 6:08 pm

My Grandfather was German Jewish. A few of my relations died in the
holocaust. However I do not find disputing the number of Jewish people
murdered by the Nazi's to be offensive or hateful.
Five million or six million people tortured, the deed was still
horrific.
Actually Stalin and his communists outdid Hitler in massacring the
Jews and prior to that many of them were killed in Spain by the
Inquisition. Not to mention the persecution they suffered during the
time of Edward Hammer Of The Scots in England.
Since the beginning of time man has hated those perceived as different
and I doubt that labelling this as hate crime will prevent it.
The atrocities of World War II failed to bring humanity to its senses
(recently the Leader of the opposistion in the Uk has been subjected to
anti semetic comments) by the Government led by oh so Christian Tony
Blair. I very much doubt that it will ever end but to accuse a person
of hate speech for disputing figures is foolish and provocative.
BarbaraVilliers

Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (wlod)

2005-04-07, 6:09 pm

BarbaraVilliers wrote:

quote:

> My Grandfather was German Jewish. A few of my
> relations died in the holocaust. However I do
> not find disputing the number of Jewish people
> murdered by the Nazi's to be offensive or hateful.

You are not from Poland, where all families were
anihilated. I hardly know anything about my family,
and mostly about my pathernal grandma's side since
a few women survived. Of men in my family only a few
survived who left Poland on time. Of those relatives
who didn't only a few women. My family was assimilated
hence it was easier for them. And still, of a family
of some hundred and fifty or more people only a dozen
or so made it. And of the women, who were still young
or relatively young, not a single one got married,
they went during the WWII through too much, and they
died after the War without their own family or children.

Of well over three million of pre-WWII Polish Jews
only 100-150 thousand had survived the War, or one
out of twenty or so. Just imagine going to school,
having about twenty classmates and then, after War,
you are the only survivor. That's what it was
statistically.

quote:

> Five million or six million people tortured,
> the deed was still horrific.

Six million West and Central European Jews
were murdered during WWII. The whole rich Jewish
culture, hundreds of small Jewish towns, ...
had vanished from the earth forever.

The figure six millions was counted twice,
and it stayed after a verification (the figures for
OTHER ethnic groups went down after the verification).
The number of Soviet Jews nurdered by Gernmans
during WWII will never be known. It is estimated
at additional two-three millions or so. It was a part
of antisemitic communist policy to pretend that Jews
don't exist, except as enemy-Zionists. The term Zionism
is still widely used by antisemites, and on rgc* it is
manipulated by "Nick" Boobaki.

quote:

> Actually Stalin and his communists outdid Hitler
> in massacring the Jews

Stalin outdid Hitler as a murderer in general,
and of many ethnic groups in particular.
He was persecuting Jews intensively. But certainly
Hitler had outdid Stalin in this one respect.

quote:

> and prior to that many of them were killed in Spain by the
> Inquisition. Not to mention the persecution they suffered
> during the time of Edward Hammer Of The Scots in England.

Jews were the early experts in running a country's finances.
Thus they were invited by kings and princes to one
country after another, and they would indeed set up
the financial policy. Soon, the local people would
learn this and that, there would be competition
and anti-Jewish reactions. That was of course only
a part of the picture but it strikes my eyes as
an interesting fenomenon, especially that it was
so consistent, it had repeated itself in Africa
and especially many times all over the Europe.

Wlod

Nick

2005-04-07, 6:09 pm

BarbaraVilliers wrote:

quote:

> My Grandfather was German Jewish.
> A few of my relations died in the holocaust.
> However I do not find disputing the number of Jewish people
> murdered by the Nazi's to be offensive or hateful.
> Five million or six million people tortured,
> the deed was still horrific. ...

As I recall, in his scholarly history, "The Destruction
of the European Jews", Raul Hilberg (who's Jewish) arrived
at the total of some 5.1 million Jewish deaths.

--Nick

BarbaraVilliers

2005-04-07, 6:09 pm

Personally with the chaos war brings I think it is impossible to arrive
at an exact figure of Jews murdered in the holocaust, not to mention
the other groups such as gypsies and the retarded who also entered
those camps.
BarbaraVilliers

Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (wlod)

2005-04-07, 6:09 pm

BarbaraVilliers wrote:

quote:

> Personally with the chaos war brings I think
> it is impossible to arrive at an exact figure
> of Jews murdered in the holocaust, not to mention
> the other groups such as gypsies and the retarded
> who also entered those camps.
> BarbaraVilliers

I imagine that they count victims from the records,
which have survived. This would underestimate
the number of victims who were Jews, due to the
sheer, staggering numbers.

In the case of Jews from Poland, Hungary and
the three Baltic countries (Lithuania, Latvia
and Estonia) virtually all Jews were murdered
during WWII. Thus you get a pretty acurate estimate
just by adding the pre-WWII Jewish population in those
countries (I don't know if Baltic Jews were included
into the most solid estimate of 5.9+ millions,
established twice at different times, separated
by years--I think that they were not, because
these three countries became Soviet Republics,
hence Western historians didn't have any access
to the relevant data anymore).

It is possible that the numbers for some other
ethnic groups (not Gypsies) were initially too
high because Jews were counted also as members
of these other groups--but I don't know.

Wlod

BarbaraVilliers

2005-04-07, 6:09 pm

Wlod
the Jews in Poland were betrayed by the Poles who refused to help them
fight the Nazi invaders. Poland held against Germany for a short time
whereas the Jews in the ghetto who decided to fight held off the Nazis
longer then expected despite few weapons and near starvation.
BarbaraVilliers

Jerzy

2005-04-07, 6:09 pm

"BarbaraVilliers" <louise@cernunos.globalnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1112798354.692154.327660@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...

quote:

> Wlod
> the Jews in Poland were betrayed by the Poles who refused to help them
> fight the Nazi invaders. Poland held against Germany for a short time
> whereas the Jews in the ghetto who decided to fight held off the Nazis
> longer then expected despite few weapons and near starvation.
> BarbaraVilliers

Barabra, I`m afraid that you blame Poles for the crimes committed by German
nazis.
I think it`s high time to stop writing about "Polish death camps" as e.g.
British "Guardian" did several months ago.

BTW one can blame Britain and France for the "success" of German blitzkrieg
in 1939.
They should respond with military action not only with words after Hitler`s
troops invaded Poland on Sept. 1st. Stalin waited 2 weeks and then on Sept.
17th invaded Poland from the East because British and French help for Poland
ended with words.

Regards,

Jerzy

BarbaraVilliers

2005-04-07, 6:09 pm

Jerzy
Have you ever read Milia 18 by Leon Uris? (a highly respected author)
The Poles collaborated heavily with their German invaders to denounce
the Jews. I never read the Guardian, my information doesn't come from
there. The only country to really attempt the resistance of the
persecution of the Jews was actually Denamark who hid Jewish people and
tried to defy the German invaders.
Britain did declare war after Germany had invaded Poland and for a
while Britain stood alone in defiance of Germany, other European
countries having succumbed or collaborating with Hitler.
If any country is invaded surely the best thing is for people to put
aside differences to repel and thwart the enemy. Poland was not unlike
much of Europe anti semitic and thus reluctant to assist the Jews in
the ghettos.
regards
BarbaraVilliers

Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (wlod)

2005-04-07, 6:09 pm

BarbaraVilliers wrote:

quote:

> Wlod
> the Jews in Poland were betrayed by the Poles
> who refused to help them fight the Nazi invaders.
> Poland held against Germany for a short time
> whereas the Jews in the ghetto who decided to
> fight held off the Nazis longer then expected
> despite few weapons and near starvation.
>
> BarbaraVilliers

And since when, Brabara, are you such an expert
on Poland? And what do you know about the comparison
with the West, say Switzerland, France, etc. --
I'd take Poland over those other countries any time.

It's a shame that people repeat such untrue, harmful
and heartless stereotypic opinions. As in the West,
there is also certain anti-semitism in Poland, but
it's not for you to judge such a complex question.
First try to learn more about these difficult issues.

During WWII, on the Polish teritory (there was no
Poland at the time), for helping or even not telling
on a Jew, the German penalty for Poles was death.
Are you sure that you understand it? Death!

Nevertheless, by far the greatest number of trees for
the Just People were awarded in Israel to Poles.
This despite the fact that many of the heroic Poles
didn't live to claim their tree, or else Poles would
be honored still more.

Yes, there were "szmalcownicy", those who gave Jews
away to Germans. The Polish underground would put them
on trial and execute.

There were also other tragic events of which Poland
is not proud. The years of German occupation were
the years of German intensive efforts to deprave people.
Communists were doing the same, except that in general,
the communist propaganda and methods were more refined
than fascist crude ways, they were more like Boobaki,
full of shit.

Some West European countries, like Denmark, under
relatively easy treatment from Germans, had
cared and succeeded in saving their Jewish citizens.
But they did NOTHING to help Jews, who were not
their citizens. Actually, there were not many such
countries, and certainly not France, which ACTIVELY
gave away ACTIVELY their Jews, under their own Vichy
government!

Observe that during WWII Poland didn't exist.
Observe that no Polish political party would
cooperate with Hitler. Now compare it with
France!

Poland defended itself against Germans and Soviets,
and still longer than France, which had to deal
with Germanay only. Actually, Polish troops
in France were fighting to the last moment,
longer than any other; e.g. Brittish took their
troops back to Brittain earlier. But there were
no French nor Brittish troops fighting in Poland.

Yes, Warsaw Ghetto was fighting much longer than
the whole France. Then Warsaw Uprising lasted still
about twice that long. Jews during the Warsaw Ghetto
uprising had very little in terms of weapons. A team
of about 7-10 people would share one gun. They would
shooot at Germans from very close range only, to
make sure that not a bullet is wasted. But
Warsaw Uprising fighters had still less!!! They
took some weapons from Germans (I am not sure
if they followed any German bureaucratic procedures
like an application etc. of which Germans seem so
fond). But when the great poet and underground
soldier Kamil Baczynski was killed on the first day
of Uprising, he was not armed.

The whole issue of the attitude toward the Jews
in the pre-WWII world and during WWII is a highly
complex. You can guess it just from watching our rgc*
antisemites and the approval which they get from
the chess audience. Just imagine into what kind of
monsters these scumbacks would turn if things became
harder on Jews, just imagine their "smooth" propaganda
and hipocrisy then.

To conclude, what you have said in your post, Barbara,
was ignorant, primitive, and false.

Best regards,

Wlod

PS. Your Brittain tricked Poland into WWII skillfully.
I don't know if you appreciate the sneakiness
of your leaders from the past. They did good job
(for Brittain). They would not get away with that
if Jozef Pilsudski were alive. He saw what was going
to happen before he died, and he even told the Polish
leaders who were going to replace him:

Don't go into this war. Without me you will lose it.

Most likely, in the view of British and French stand,
Pilsudski would avoid a direct confrontation with
Hitler (and Stalin), and would leave the honor of
starting WWII to Brittain and France. Poland would
then save a few million of its citizens, while
France and Brittain would understand the things quite
a bit better, if you got more pounding from Hitler.
Then your opinion also would be more humble and
more reasonable.

Jerzy

2005-04-07, 6:09 pm

"BarbaraVilliers" <louise@cernunos.globalnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1112867209.045202.113030@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

quote:

> Jerzy
> Have you ever read Milia 18 by Leon Uris? (a highly respected author)

Nope, I hear about him for the first time. Can you describe the arguments he
uses ?

quote:

> The Poles collaborated heavily with their German invaders to denounce
> the Jews. I never read the Guardian, my information doesn't come from
> there. The only country to really attempt the resistance of the
> persecution of the Jews was actually Denamark who hid Jewish people and
> tried to defy the German invaders.

I`m not a historian but AFAIK Denmark was not the only country that helped
Jews during WW2. As a matter of fact many Poles did help many Polish Jews to
survive Holocaust.

quote:

> Britain did declare war after Germany had invaded Poland and for a
> while Britain stood alone in defiance of Germany, other European
> countries having succumbed or collaborating with Hitler.

Unfortunately you are wrong. Both Britain and France declared war with
Hitler in Sept. 1939 but it was only words.

Hitler had a secret deal with Stalin. See Ribbentrop - Molotov`s pact
Hitler assured Stalin that in the case of war with Poland, Polish allies
won`t help Poland by any military action within two weeks what was written
in the treaty between Poland and its both allies : France and Britain, so it
was a signal for Stalin to invade Poland from the east.

quote:

> If any country is invaded surely the best thing is for people to put
> aside differences to repel and thwart the enemy. Poland was not unlike
> much of Europe anti semitic and thus reluctant to assist the Jews in
> the ghettos.
> regards
> BarbaraVilliers

It was Poland who first resisted Hitler`s anschluss of the world but was
betrayed by her allies.

As far as alleged Polish antisemitism is concerned, the propaganda about
"Polish death camps" is today one of the arguments in the hands of
westerners who want to blame Poles for the crimes committed by German nazis.

Jerzy

Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (wlod)

2005-04-07, 6:09 pm

BarbaraVilliers wrote more nonsense :-):

quote:

> Jerzy
> Have you ever read Milia 18 by Leon Uris?
> (a highly respected author)

You must be kidding! Please, tell me that you
are not serious.

Your ignorance would be funny, if it were
not for the gravity of the topic.

Wlod

quote:

> The Poles collaborated heavily with their German invaders to denounce
> the Jews. I never read the Guardian, my information doesn't come from
> there.

You simply have no information. You just cited your what you
considered a source, Leon Uris, ha-ha-ha. Get real :-)

quote:

> Britain did declare war after Germany had
> invaded Poland and for a while Britain stood
> alone in defiance of Germany, other European
> countries having succumbed or collaborating
> with Hitler.

(Poland was never collaborating with Hitler).
It was Poland during September of 1939 which
stood alone in defiance of Germany, while tricky
Brittain (and pathetic France) were only paying
lip service to the pact with Poland. Be glad, Barbara,
be happy, but if there was such a thing like shame.
then it is a good moment for you to feel it.

Naive Polish leaders let Poland into a stupid for
Poland allience with Brittain and France (instead
of aiming at neutrality), so Poland lost independence
and 4.7 million citizens (including 3 million of
Polish Jews). But Polish troops kept fighting Germans
non-stop on foreign soil. They were fighting for
France (another Polish romantic and costly gesture),
and they were fighting for Brittain too.

quote:

> If any country is invaded surely the best
> thing is for people to put aside differences
> to repel and thwart the enemy.

You are so COMFORTABLY smart. Do you hacve your
English cup'a tea next to you?

quote:

> Poland was not unlike much of Europe anti semitic
> and thus reluctant to assist the Jews in
> the ghettos.
>
> regards
> BarbaraVilliers

I assure you, Barbara, that if you had Boobaki
and Hans as your neighbors, you'd never hide
a Jew even for one night, or it would cost you
YOUR and your FAMILY's life. LIFE. Understand?
That's how it was in Poland under the German occupation.

Please, be at least a litle bit sensitive.
Your skin is way too thick to talk about
tragic events about which you know worse than
nothing, worse.

Wlod

BarbaraVilliers

2005-04-07, 6:09 pm

"And since when, Brabara, are you such an expert
on Poland?"
I have as much right to my opinions as you Wlod. At least I do not
throw asinine personal insults at you. Are you anti British? You
certainly give me that impression. I haven't notice you comment on
Denmark's refusal to hand over Jews
BarbaraVilliers

BarbaraVilliers

2005-04-07, 6:09 pm

Jerzy
Leon Uris was involved in an interesting court case involving a Doctor
who he accused openly in one of his books of being a Nazi Mengele style
character. The Doctor sued for damages. The judge found against Uris
but awarded the Doctor "damages" of a penny without costs on the
grounds that the damage to the mans reputation was worthless.
Poland's airforce was known for its courage. The point I am making is
that many of these countries were happy or indifferent about the fate
of the Jews as anti semitism was extremely common.
The death camps were not set up by Poles but by the Germans. My
argument is that there was little resistance to the torture of the Jews
and other assorted groups.
I read that the late John Paul II rescued a survivor from one of those
camps indeed the Holy Father apologised to the Jews for the atrocities
committed by Christianity.
BarbaraVilliers

Jerzy

2005-04-07, 6:09 pm

"BarbaraVilliers" <louise@cernunos.globalnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1112887596.505290.305800@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...

quote:

> Leon Uris was involved in an interesting court case involving a Doctor
> who he accused openly in one of his books of being a Nazi Mengele style
> character. The Doctor sued for damages. The judge found against Uris
> but awarded the Doctor "damages" of a penny without costs on the
> grounds that the damage to the mans reputation was worthless.

Barbara, I asked about your arguments of alleged Polish heavy collaboration
with nazis.

quote:

> Poland's airforce was known for its courage. The point I am making is
> that many of these countries were happy or indifferent about the fate
> of the Jews as anti semitism was extremely common.

That`s true.

If Britain and France had acted as true allies of Poland in Sept. 1939 then,
undoubtedly, there wouldn`t have been such a genocide as WW2.

quote:

> The death camps were not set up by Poles but by the Germans. My
> argument is that there was little resistance to the torture of the Jews
> and other assorted groups.

Unfortunately you omit the fact that Poles did save many Polish Jews risking
their lives. Was it the same in the case in Denmark ?

BTW I`ve heard lately on the radio about a Pole who acted in Hungary and did
save hundreds Jews (not only Polish Jews) during WW2.

quote:

> I read that the late John Paul II rescued a survivor from one of those
> camps indeed the Holy Father apologised to the Jews for the atrocities
> committed by Christianity.
> BarbaraVilliers

Unfortunately the 20th century will be remembered as the century of genocide
on a scale never seen before.

Jerzy

Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (wlod)

2005-04-07, 6:09 pm

BarbaraVilliers wrote:

quote:

> My Grandfather was German Jewish. A few of my
> relations died in the holocaust. However I do
> not find disputing the number of Jewish people
> murdered by the Nazi's to be offensive or hateful.

quote:

> Five million or six million people tortured,
> the deed was still horrific.

quote:

> Actually Stalin and his communists outdid Hitler
> in massacring the Jews

Stalin outdid Hitler as a murderer in general,
and of many ethnic groups in particular.
He was persecuting Jews intensively. But certainly
Hitler had outdid Stalin in this one respect.

quote:

> and prior to that many of them were killed in Spain by the
> Inquisition. Not to mention the persecution they suffered
> during the time of Edward Hammer Of The Scots in England.

Hans Jørgen Lassen

2005-04-07, 6:09 pm

"Jerzy" wrote:

quote:

> Unfortunately you omit the fact that Poles did save many Polish Jews
> risking their lives. Was it the same in the case in Denmark ?

Many bad things happened in Denmark during the war.

One of the worst was the cooperation of the Danish police with the Germans
to imprison Communists. An illegal operation according to normal law, but
noone were held responsible after the war, as far as I remember.

One of the few positive things was that almost all Jews were helped to
escape. Compared to other countries the survival rate was extremely high.
Why, I do not know.

HansJ

Jerzy

2005-04-07, 9:53 pm

"Hans Jørgen Lassen" <hj.lassen@privat.dk> wrote in message
news:42559ade$0$23087$edfadb0f@dread15.news.tele.dk...

quote:

> One of the few positive things was that almost all Jews were helped to
> escape. Compared to other countries the survival rate was extremely high.

Where did they escape to ?

Jerzy

Nick

2005-04-07, 9:53 pm

Jerzy Ciruk wrote (to Hans Jorgen Lassen):

quote:

> "Hans J=F8rgen Lassen" <hj.lassen@privat.dk> wrote in message
> news:42559ade$0$23087$edfadb0f@dread15.news.tele.dk...

That's true. I note with disdain that in making some of his
many personal attacks against Hans Jorgen Lassen as an alleged
anti-Semite, Wlodzimierz Holsztynski seems to have implied, if not
asserted, that the Danish people are particularly anti-Semitic.
[vbcol=seagreen]
> Where did they escape to?

Sweden, a neutral country that's a neighbour of Denmark.

--Nick

Nick

2005-04-07, 9:53 pm

BarbaraVilliers wrote:

quote:

> Wlodzimierz Holsztynski wrote to 'Barbara Villiers':
>
> I have as much right to my opinions as you Wlod.

I do *not necessarily* agree with every opinion
expressed by 'Barbara Villiers', yet she deserves
to be treated with more respect than Wlodzimierz
Holsztynski has shown her.

quote:

> At least I do not throw asinine personal insults
> at you.

Wlodzimierz Holsztynski has 'throw(n) asinine
personal insults' at many diverse writers here
on countless occasions--that's quite 'normal'
behaviour for him as a writer in the Usenet
chess newsgroups.

Over the years, many diverse writers have told
(in different words) Wlodzimierz Holsztynski
to stop making his 'asinine personal insults',
but he always has refused to listen to them.

quote:

> Are you anti British?
> You certainly give me that impression.

Wlodzimierz Holsztynski, a US citizen today,
evidently also is a zealous Polish nationalist.

quote:

>From what I have read elsewhere, some Polish

nationalists seem to have convinced themselves
that the British 'betrayed' Poland by having
been unable to stop the Germans and Soviets from
conquering and dividing Poland in September 1939.

quote:

> I haven't notice you comment on
> Denmark's refusal to hand over Jews

Wlodzimierz Holsztynski's determined to vilify
Hans Jorgen Lassen, a Dane, as an anti-Semite, and
Holsztynzki seems to have made some attempt to
imply that the people of Denmark are anti-Semitic.

--Nick

Hans Jørgen Lassen

2005-04-08, 3:55 am

"Jerzy" wrote:

quote:

> Where did they escape to ?

Almost all of them sailed to Sweden, many on fishing boats. It is a very
short trip.
HansJ

BarbaraVilliers

2005-04-08, 6:54 am

Nick
Hans seems infinitely more tolerant then Wlod who treats anyone
disagreeing with him with a lack of respect and indeed makes unpleasant
insinuations about their background ie Western person British drinking
tea. This is the guy who deplores anti semitic behaviour! Wlod comes
across as a mean fanatical personality
BarbaraVilliers

Jerzy

2005-04-08, 5:58 pm

"Hans Jørgen Lassen" <hj.lassen@privat.dk> wrote in message
news:42560690$0$23080$edfadb0f@dread15.news.tele.dk...

quote:

>
> Almost all of them sailed to Sweden, many on fishing boats. It is a very
> short trip.

Did they come back to Denmark after WW2 ?

Jerzy

Jerzy

2005-04-08, 5:58 pm

"BarbaraVilliers" <louise@cernunos.globalnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1112951126.602832.262550@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...

quote:

> Hans seems infinitely more tolerant then Wlod who treats anyone
> disagreeing with him with a lack of respect and indeed makes unpleasant
> insinuations about their background ie Western person British drinking
> tea. This is the guy who deplores anti semitic behaviour! Wlod comes
> across as a mean fanatical personality

Who is Hans Juergen Lassen tolerant with ? Israelis, Palestinians or
Americans ?
The same question is applicable to "Nick".

BTW Barbara, I am still awaiting your arguments of alleged Polish heavy
collaboration with nazis.

Jerzy

Hans Jørgen Lassen

2005-04-08, 5:58 pm

"Jerzy" wrote:

quote:

> Did they come back to Denmark after WW2 ?

Yes, they did.

HansJ

Hans Jørgen Lassen

2005-04-08, 5:58 pm

"Jerzy" wrote:

quote:

> Who is Hans Juergen Lassen tolerant with ? Israelis, Palestinians or
> Americans ?

I guess neither Israelis, Palestinians nor Americans care much about my
tolerance, as I dont have any influence, power, guns or money.

But I am very tolerant with my grandchildren, and they care.

HansJ

BarbaraVilliers

2005-04-08, 5:58 pm

Jerzy
I have already stated my view. One clear thing about war is that even
after the fighting is done. Nobody will agree about the events that
took place during the war. There are several books that mention Polish
Collaboration. Did you ever see Holocaust? This used actual footage of
the Death Camps and also talks of the collaboration with the Germans.
Poland was far from alone in this behaviour.
Hans has the civility to disagree without using the racist insults
employed by Wlod.As for Nick he doesn't resort to personal abuse during
disagreement. Perhaps Wlod is not gifted at debate and this is his way
of handling with dissension. Go figure!!!!!
BarbaraVilliers

Jerzy

2005-04-08, 5:58 pm

"Hans Jørgen Lassen" <hj.lassen@privat.dk> wrote in message
news:42568ccc$0$23084$edfadb0f@dread15.news.tele.dk...

quote:

>
>
> I guess neither Israelis, Palestinians nor Americans care much about my
> tolerance, as I dont have any influence, power, guns or money.

However you can write here. I`ve noticed many persons here making here their
own private wars or even making dirty propaganda. So they use words as
weapons.

quote:

>
> But I am very tolerant with my grandchildren, and they care.

So just apply your everyday-life attitude to this forum and everybody will
be happy to discuss chess and not judge who is right in all political
conflicts all around the world.

Jerzy

Jerzy

2005-04-08, 5:58 pm

"BarbaraVilliers" <louise@cernunos.globalnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1112968929.482352.64390@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

quote:

> I have already stated my view. One clear thing about war is that even
> after the fighting is done. Nobody will agree about the events that
> took place during the war. There are several books that mention Polish
> Collaboration.

Name these books.

I fully agree with Wlod`s point of view. There were "szmalcownicy" (people
who sold Polish Jews for German nazis) in Poland, even such nasty ones as in
Jedwabne.

However the situations in Poland and in Denmark were totally different. In
Denmark there was no Resistance against Germany, they even cooperated with
nazis and it was luckily much easier for Danish Jews to escape to nearby
Sweden.

In Poland there was no escape for Jews because German nazis had made all
possible to make "endschluss" on Polish soil, however in Poland there was a
heavy Resistance Movement against nazis and the only penalty sentenced by
Polish Resistance for "szmalcownicy" was death.

So don`t tell fairy-tales about alleged heavy Polish collaboration with
nazis.

Did you ever see Holocaust? This used actual footage of

quote:

> the Death Camps and also talks of the collaboration with the Germans.
> Poland was far from alone in this behaviour.

Yes, the footage of German death camps says much. Hitler on purpose build
them on Polish soil in the hope that naive persons liku you would blame
Poles for Hitler`s crimes and would write about "Polish death camps".

quote:

> Hans has the civility to disagree without using the racist insults
> employed by Wlod.As for Nick he doesn't resort to personal abuse during
> disagreement. Perhaps Wlod is not gifted at debate and this is his way
> of handling with dissension. Go figure!!!!!
> BarbaraVilliers

"Nick" has made hundreds of personal insults here. Just read his previous
posts more carefully. As far as Hans is concerned his anti-American and
anti-Israeli attitude is more than visible. However I wonder if he cares
much about e.g. Palestinians ?

Jerzy

Jerzy

2005-04-08, 5:58 pm

"Hans Jørgen Lassen" <hj.lassen@privat.dk> wrote in message
news:42567f81$0$23102$edfadb0f@dread15.news.tele.dk...

quote:

>
> Yes, they did.

How many of Danish Jews escaped to Sweden and returned to Denmark ?

Jerzy

Nick

2005-04-08, 9:53 pm

Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (wlod) wrote:

quote:

> BarbaraVilliers wrote (about the Jewish people)

The Jews in Spain experienced substantially more
tolerance when the Muslims had ruled earlier than
when the Christians ruled later.
[vbcol=seagreen]

In 1290, King Edward I issued an edict that
expelled all Jews from England.
[vbcol=seagreen]
> Jews were the early experts in running a
> country's finances.

Unlike some other peoples, the Jews did not
have any religious prohibitions against usury.

quote:

> Thus they were invited by kings and princes
> to one country after another,

What may have happened in Poland did not
necessarily happen in the same way in China. :-)

quote:

> and they would indeed set up the financial policy.
> Soon, the local people would learn this and that,
> there would be competition and anti-Jewish reactions.
> That was of course only a part of the picture but
> it strikes my eyes as an interesting fenomenon,
> especially that it was so consistent, it had
> repeated itself in Africa and especially many
> times all over the Europe.

Exactly when and where does Wlodzimierz Holsztynski
claim that this 'interesting fenomenon (sic)'
'repeated itself in Africa' (to quote Holsztynski)?

It's true that there was and continues to be
some 'anti-Jewish reactions' (to quote Holsztynski)
outside of Europe. But European anti-Semitism should
*not* be indiscriminately extrapolated everywhere else.

--Nick

Nick

2005-04-08, 9:53 pm

Jerzy Ciruk wrote (to 'Barbara Villiers'):

quote:

> (snipped)
> It was Poland who first resisted Hitler`s anschluss
> of the world but was betrayed by her allies.

In fact, during the 1938 Munich Crisis, Poland cooperated
with Germany's pursuit of territorial demands against
Czechoslovakia. Poland mobilised part of its army and
threatened to invade Czechoslovkia unless the Czechs
ceded the Teschen region (which Poland claimed as its own)
to Poland. Czechoslovakia was hardly in any position
to fight against invasions by both Germany and Poland,
and therefore Czechoslovakia ceded the Teschen to Poland.
Then the Poles celebrated their great 'success'.

Polish nationalists today may like to pretend that this
historical event never happened, but I have no doubt
that some people in the Czech Republic or in Slovakia
may still remember it.

Here's what Winston Churchill wrote about it later:

"...Great Britain advances, leading France by the hand,
to guarantee the integrity of Poland--to that very Poland
which with hyena appetite had only six months before
joined (with Hitler) in the pillage and destruction of
the Czechoslovak state."
--Winston Churchill

--Nick

Hans Jørgen Lassen

2005-04-09, 3:53 am

"Jerzy" wrote:

quote:

> How many of Danish Jews escaped to Sweden and returned to Denmark ?

95% of the Danish Jews escaped to Sweden. 5 % were caught and sent to
Theresienstadt.
I do not know how many returned after the war, neither from Sweden nor from
Theresienstadt.
HansJ

David Ames

2005-04-09, 3:53 am

Hans J=F8rgen Lassen wrote:

quote:

> "Jerzy" wrote:
>
Jews[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> Many bad things happened in Denmark during the war.
>
> One of the worst was the cooperation of the Danish police with the

Germans

quote:

> to imprison Communists. An illegal operation according to normal law,

but

quote:

> noone were held responsible after the war, as far as I remember.
>
> One of the few positive things was that almost all Jews were helped

quote:

> escape. Compared to other countries the survival rate was extremely

high.

quote:

> Why, I do not know.
>
> HansJ

There was an informant who knew the Nazi plans to capture and deport
the Danish Jews. His knowledge spurred action. (Victor Borge was
already in America.)

There was one country -- I don't know whether it was Denmark or the
Netherlands -- where German soldiers were enjoying themselves entirely
too much. Supposedly the Germans were think of depopulating the
country.=20

David Ames

Hans Jørgen Lassen

2005-04-09, 3:53 am

"Jerzy" wrote:

quote:

> How many of Danish Jews escaped to Sweden and returned to Denmark ?

I have looked into this again. It seems that numbers are unclear and sources
differ. But more than 7000 Danish Jews escaped to Sweden while about 480
were sent to Theresienstadt.

After the war more than 5000 returned from Sweden. Those that were in
Theresienstadt returned to Denmark via Sweden; about 50-55 died in
Theresienstadt.

HansJ

David Ames

2005-04-09, 3:53 am

Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (wlod) wrote:

quote:

>
> PS. Your Brittain tricked Poland into WWII skillfully.
> I don't know if you appreciate the sneakiness
> of your leaders from the past. They did good job
> (for Brittain). They would not get away with that
> if Jozef Pilsudski were alive. He saw what was going
> to happen before he died, and he even told the Polish
> leaders who were going to replace him:
>
> Don't go into this war. Without me you will lose it.
>
> Most likely, in the view of British and French stand,
> Pilsudski would avoid a direct confrontation with
> Hitler (and Stalin), and would leave the honor of
> starting WWII to Brittain and France. Poland would
> then save a few million of its citizens, while
> France and Brittain would understand the things quite
> a bit better, if you got more pounding from Hitler.
> Then your opinion also would be more humble and
> more reasonable.

Wlod, Are you unaware that Hitler's policy of obtaining Lebensraum was
intended to occupy all Slavic lands as far as the Urals? That Hitler
regarded all the Slavic peoples as Untermenschen? That Hitler had
decided on war already in 1937 or 1938? I find it difficult to believe
that an intelligent, informed person would expect distant countries to
come to the aid of Poland, which was lost in only three weeks.

Can you find a link to the secret annexes to the Nazi - Soviet pact
that was signed August 22, 1939 -- if I recall correctly? Probably
that treaty was the partition of Poland and the cession of the Baltic
states.

Hey, wasn't Pilsudski born in Lithuania? Maybe he should have had
Lithuania come to Poland's defense. Remember when Lithuania ruled
Central Europe? Teutons, just like the Germans. Lie-tu-va ! Lie-tu-va
! Lie-tu-va !

David Ames

Jerzy

2005-04-09, 6:52 am

"Hans Jørgen Lassen" <hj.lassen@privat.dk> wrote in message
news:4257368f$0$23106$edfadb0f@dread15.news.tele.dk...

quote:

>
> I have looked into this again. It seems that numbers are unclear and
> sources differ. But more than 7000 Danish Jews escaped to Sweden while
> about 480 were sent to Theresienstadt.
>
> After the war more than 5000 returned from Sweden. Those that were in
> Theresienstadt returned to Denmark via Sweden; about 50-55 died in
> Theresienstadt.

So now compare this number : 7 thousands with 6 millions Poles murdered
during WW2 by Geraman nazis (among them 3 millions Polish Jews).

BTW 38% of Polish property was destroyed during WW2.

Jerzy

Jerzy

2005-04-09, 6:52 am

"Hans Jørgen Lassen" <hj.lassen@privat.dk> wrote in message
news:4257368f$0$23106$edfadb0f@dread15.news.tele.dk...

quote:

>
> I have looked into this again. It seems that numbers are unclear and
> sources differ. But more than 7000 Danish Jews escaped to Sweden while
> about 480 were sent to Theresienstadt.
>
> After the war more than 5000 returned from Sweden. Those that were in
> Theresienstadt returned to Denmark via Sweden; about 50-55 died in
> Theresienstadt.

So now compare this number : 7 thousands with 6 millions Poles (among them 3
millions Polish Jews) murdered
during WW2 by German nazis .

BTW 38% of Polish property was destroyed during WW2.

Jerzy

Hans Jørgen Lassen

2005-04-09, 6:52 am

"Jerzy" wrote:

quote:

> So now compare this number : 7 thousands with 6 millions Poles murdered
> during WW2 by Geraman nazis (among them 3 millions Polish Jews).
>
> BTW 38% of Polish property was destroyed during WW2.

Yes, the nazis were not nearly as cruel against Denmark as they were against
Poland. Very few Danes were killed, and there was enough food; not much was
destroyed.

It is still being discussed whether more resistance ought to have been put
up against the occupational power (sorry, I have to mention this, I cant
help it: like some Palestinians do against the Israeli occupation). The few
people who did actively resist were at least in the beginning regarded
almost as terrorists, though they didnt engage in suicide bombings. They
blew up factories that produced goods for the Germans and railroad tracks
and things like that. And they did kill some persons that cooperated too
closely with the Germans.

If more resistance had existed there would have been massive retaliations
from the Nazis. Still, maybe for the selfrespect of the Danish people that
would have been better.

My grandfather was in one of those resistance groups. On the very day when
the Germans capitulated (May 4th 1945) two of his comrades were shot, one of
them killed. My grandfather and a couple of other guys got away without
being hit.

HansJ

Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (wlod)

2005-04-09, 6:52 am

David Ames wrote:

quote:

> Wlod, Are you unaware [...]

I am aware of everything you have written
in your post (minus your mean spirited
nonsensical comments). You're not playing nice.
You're not after meritum and the historical
truth. You're just playing cheap games.

Actually, I edit (write) on-line, and Google
occasionally tells me to try again
in 30 seconds; it devours my posts,
in particular some of the posts related to the
topic of antisemitism on rgc*.

Late into the WWII Hitler had started to implement
his plan of anihilation Poles like he did with
Jews. Fortunately, he didn't have time to
go with that plan too far. Nevertheless, Poles
had suffered their share of loses.

In the period leading to September 1939, Polish leaders
policy was irresponsible. Going toward war with Hitler
(while having the hostile Soviets from the east) was
a huige, terrible error. Poland should have had tell
Hitler: look guy, we undusted yuor pants when you were
still a small boy, but now that you are big, take it
easy on us, we will stay neutral, and you go ahead
and concentrate on Britain and France. It would mean
that Poland would allow Hitler a free access ("corridor")
between Germany and Prussia. It would be way better for
Poland than what actually had happened.

It would be way worse for Britain and France, but then these
two countries, as we know only so well, have betrayed Poland
anyway. They were all talk and no action. And later, Britain
and the USA (Roosevelt) had sold its ally Poland. Roosevelt
said something like this: "I have a hunch that uncle Joseph
(Stalin) is a good man". The West has helped the Soviet cover
up of the mass murder of more than ten thousand of Polish
officers in the Katyn forest!

So, if Poland played it smart, she would stay neutral most
of the WWII, would join the anti-Hitler coalition later, near
the end of the War (like some other countries). Then Poland
would be much better off and would enjoy more respect, and
I would not have to listen to your stupid, offensive remarks.

Oh, well, have fun Ames--West did well for itself, while
Poland and Jews fared much worse.

BTW, Barbara--the West, not Poland, had betrayed the Jewish
part of your family.

In a contradiction to what you have written here,
the Polish undergraound, within its modest means,
had provided Jewish Ghetto fighers with a (limited)
number of hand guns, and staged military demonstrations
outside the Ghetto, during the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising.
It was not much, I am sure that more was possible, but
it was infinitely more than the West (and Soviets) did
during the whole WWII to counter Germany's action called
"Final Solution"--the West (and Soviets) didn't make
a single military gesture!!! This despite the fact that
some brave members of the Polish underground went inside
the Ghettos and death concentration camps, to get the first
hand information. They had informed Britain (British
parlament) and the USA (Roosevelt). One of curiers from
Poland, in order to impress the Jewish tragedy on the West,
had committed suicide. Nothing helped. The West didn't care
about the total mass murder of the Jews, about the whole people
vanishing. Not a single Western action followed. Zero.

Ok, guys, go ahead, joke, show how smart you are,
lick antisemitic XXX. There is a Western tradition.
West was very good at licking Hitler's XXX.

Listen to Boobakis telling you that it's not that simple
about Quadafi and his chess olimpiad. Sure, let's make
everything relative, and let's not call idiots idiots,
bigots bigots, antisemits antisemits. Keep licking
Hanses' and Boobakis' and other antisemites' XXX. Why,
some of you will have their OWN XXX wet.

Wlod

Jerzy

2005-04-09, 5:57 pm

> > It was Poland who first resisted Hitler`s anschluss

quote:

>
> In fact, during the 1938 Munich Crisis, Poland cooperated
> with Germany's pursuit of territorial demands against
> Czechoslovakia. Poland mobilised part of its army and
> threatened to invade Czechoslovkia unless the Czechs
> ceded the Teschen region (which Poland claimed as its own)
> to Poland.

Now I expect a long series about Polish Nationalism form the anonymous
coward "Nick". That`s what I call "Hate speech" by "Nick"

There`s no discussion about the huge mistakes as annexion by Poles Czech
Cieszyn in 1938 or about helping the Soviets by Poles during military
intervention in Czech Republic in 1968.

However we Poles don`t re-write history and we don`t write about Czech
invasion of Poland in 1938 or in 1968 like British "Guardian" which wrote
about "Polish death camps".

Jerzy

2005-04-09, 5:57 pm

"David Ames" <worldrecord@juno.com> wrote in message
news:1113013200.995928.63890@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...

I find it difficult to believe

quote:

> that an intelligent, informed person would expect distant countries to
> come to the aid of Poland, which was lost in only three weeks.

Do you play chess ? It was a simple two-mover. Move one : Britain and France
declared war with Germany on Sept. 3rd 1939. Move two : Stalin waited two
weeks and after having seen no military help from Polish allies attacked
Poland on Sept. 17th.
Check and mate.

55 millions of victims.

David Ames

2005-04-09, 5:57 pm

Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (wlod) wrote:

quote:

> David Ames wrote:
>
>
> I am aware of everything you have written
> in your post (minus your mean spirited
> nonsensical comments). You're not playing nice.
> You're not after meritum and the historical
> truth. You're just playing cheap games.
>

Well, I thought my comments were humorous, and that your remarks paid
no attention to Realpolitik.

I have told you historical truths, about how Poland was in Hitler's way
to dominate Slavic lands and peoples up to the Urals by making war.
For some reason these truths don't seem to affect your contrary point
of view. You are as stubborn as a Finn.

David Ames

David Ames

2005-04-09, 5:57 pm

Jerzy wrote:

quote:

> "David Ames" <worldrecord@juno.com> wrote in message
> news:1113013200.995928.63890@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> I find it difficult to believe
to[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> Do you play chess ? It was a simple two-mover. Move one : Britain and

France

quote:

> declared war with Germany on Sept. 3rd 1939. Move two : Stalin waited

two

quote:

> weeks and after having seen no military help from Polish allies

attacked

quote:

> Poland on Sept. 17th.
> Check and mate.
>
> 55 millions of victims.

Yes, I play chess. I am in the USCF rating list. I have had two games
published: one in a book (White: Fischer), and one in the magazine
American Chess Quarterly (White: Robin Ault). Thank you for asking.

How do you think military help was supposed to get to Poland? Across
the Baltische Meer or Germany? From Czechoslovakia, already
incorporated into the German Reich in 1938? From the Soviet Union? Or
straight down from Heaven?

David Ames

BarbaraVilliers

2005-04-09, 5:57 pm

Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (wlod) wrote:

quote:

> David Ames wrote:
>
>
> I am aware of everything you have written
> in your post (minus your mean spirited
> nonsensical comments). You're not playing nice.
> You're not after meritum and the historical
> truth. You're just playing cheap games.
>
> Actually, I edit (write) on-line, and Google
> occasionally tells me to try again
> in 30 seconds; it devours my posts,
> in particular some of the posts related to the
> topic of antisemitism on rgc*.
>
> Late into the WWII Hitler had started to implement
> his plan of anihilation Poles like he did with
> Jews. Fortunately, he didn't have time to
> go with that plan too far. Nevertheless, Poles
> had suffered their share of loses.
>
> In the period leading to September 1939, Polish leaders
> policy was irresponsible. Going toward war with Hitler
> (while having the hostile Soviets from the east) was
> a huige, terrible error. Poland should have had tell
> Hitler: look guy, we undusted yuor pants when you were
> still a small boy, but now that you are big, take it
> easy on us, we will stay neutral, and you go ahead
> and concentrate on Britain and France. It would mean
> that Poland would allow Hitler a free access ("corridor")
> between Germany and Prussia. It would be way better for
> Poland than what actually had happened.
>
> It would be way worse for Britain and France, but then these
> two countries, as we know only so well, have betrayed Poland
> anyway. They were all talk and no action. And later, Britain
> and the USA (Roosevelt) had sold its ally Poland. Roosevelt
> said something like this: "I have a hunch that uncle Joseph
> (Stalin) is a good man". The West has helped the Soviet cover
> up of the mass murder of more than ten thousand of Polish
> officers in the Katyn forest!
>
> So, if Poland played it smart, she would stay neutral most
> of the WWII, would join the anti-Hitler coalition later, near
> the end of the War (like some other countries). Then Poland
> would be much better off and would enjoy more respect, and
> I would not have to listen to your stupid, offensive remarks.
>
> Oh, well, have fun Ames--West did well for itself, while
> Poland and Jews fared much worse.
>
> BTW, Barbara--the West, not Poland, had betrayed the Jewish
> part of your family.
>
> In a contradiction to what you have written here,
> the Polish undergraound, within its modest means,
> had provided Jewish Ghetto fighers with a (limited)
> number of hand guns, and staged military demonstrations
> outside the Ghetto, during the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising.
> It was not much, I am sure that more was possible, but
> it was infinitely more than the West (and Soviets) did
> during the whole WWII to counter Germany's action called
> "Final Solution"--the West (and Soviets) didn't make
> a single military gesture!!! This despite the fact that
> some brave members of the Polish underground went inside
> the Ghettos and death concentration camps, to get the first
> hand information. They had informed Britain (British
> parlament) and the USA (Roosevelt). One of curiers from
> Poland, in order to impress the Jewish tragedy on the West,
> had committed suicide. Nothing helped. The West didn't care
> about the total mass murder of the Jews, about the whole people
> vanishing. Not a single Western action followed. Zero.
>
> Ok, guys, go ahead, joke, show how smart you are,
> lick antisemitic XXX. There is a Western tradition.
> West was very good at licking Hitler's XXX.
>
> Listen to Boobakis telling you that it's not that simple
> about Quadafi and his chess olimpiad. Sure, let's make
> everything relative, and let's not call idiots idiots,
> bigots bigots, antisemits antisemits. Keep licking
> Hanses' and Boobakis' and other antisemites' XXX. Why,
> some of you will have their OWN XXX wet.
>
> Wlod

"BTW, Barbara--the West, not Poland, had betrayed the Jewish
part of your family"
Germany annihilated them certainly.But I don't buy the idea that
nobody in Poland never colluded with the Germans.
BarbaraVilliers

BarbaraVilliers

2005-04-09, 5:57 pm

Jerzy
Quite a bit of Great Britain suffered considerable damage during the
blitz!
BarbaraVilliers

Jerzy

2005-04-09, 5:57 pm

"BarbaraVilliers" <louise@cernunos.globalnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1113074654.952510.112510@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...

quote:

> "BTW, Barbara--the West, not Poland, had betrayed the Jewish
> part of your family"
> Germany annihilated them certainly.But I don't buy the idea that
> nobody in Poland never colluded with the Germans.

It`s not a matter that nobody colluded with nazis : see "szmalcownicy".

Your statement that Poles collaborated heavily with nazis is simply false
and insulting.

On the contrary : there was a widespread Polish Resistance Movement against
nazis and the only penalty for "szmalcownicy", who were sentenced by the
Resistance, was death.

Jerzy

Jerzy

2005-04-09, 5:57 pm

"David Ames" <worldrecord@juno.com> wrote in message
news:1113062675.247593.233540@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...

quote:

> How do you think military help was supposed to get to Poland? Across
> the Baltische Meer or Germany? From Czechoslovakia, already
> incorporated into the German Reich in 1938? From the Soviet Union? Or
> straight down from Heaven?

You know for sure the saying : where is a will, there is a way.

France preferred to hide behind Maginot line and was conquered even faster
than Poland.
Britain almost collapsed in 1940 but Hitler wanted more than Britain and
attacked Stalin what was fortunately his greatest mistake.

Allies should be loyal but unfortunately then they weren`t.

Jerzy

David Ames

2005-04-09, 9:53 pm

Jerzy wrote:

quote:

> "David Ames" <worldrecord@juno.com> wrote in message
> news:1113062675.247593.233540@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>
Across[vbcol=seagreen]
Or[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> You know for sure the saying : where is a will, there is a way.
>

If I understand correctly, you admit there was no known way to supply
military aid to Poland in September 1939.

quote:

> France preferred to hide behind Maginot line and was conquered even

faster

quote:

> than Poland.
> Britain almost collapsed in 1940 but Hitler wanted more than Britain

and

quote:

> attacked Stalin what was fortunately his greatest mistake.
>
> Allies should be loyal but unfortunately then they weren`t.

Britain loyally declared war against Germany because Poland had been
invaded. Remember that France refused to take military action when
Germany occupied the Ruhr in 1936. The ever-weak Third Republic could
only say "Vous pouvez compter sur moi," but could do nothing.

quote:

>
> Jerzy

David Ames

Nick

2005-04-10, 3:52 am

Jerzy Ciruk wrote:

quote:

> "David Ames" <worldrecord@juno.com> wrote in message
> news:1113062675.247593.233540@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>
> You know for sure the saying: where is a will,
> there is a way.

A cliche is no substitute for specific strategic,
operational, and logistical plans in wartime.

quote:

> France preferred to hide behind Maginot line
> and was conquered even faster than Poland.

It's a false statement that Germany needed less time to
conquer France in 1940 than to conquer Poland in 1939.

Jerzy Ciruk has acknowledged that he's not a historian,
and his writing about 'history' tends to corroborate it.

--Nick

Hans Jørgen Lassen

2005-04-10, 6:56 am

"Jerzy" wrote:

quote:

> Did they come back to Denmark after WW2 ?

Yes, they did.

HansJ

Jerzy

2005-04-10, 5:53 pm

"David Ames" <worldrecord@juno.com> wrote in message
news:1113091482.206407.92630@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

quote:

>
> If I understand correctly, you admit there was no known way to supply
> military aid to Poland in September 1939.

If I were your ally I would surely help you but there was no help from
Polish allies not even a demonstration of power on their side. Unfortuantely
it was a demonstration of weakness.

quote:

>
> faster
> and
>
> Britain loyally declared war against Germany because Poland had been
> invaded. Remember that France refused to take military action when
> Germany occupied the Ruhr in 1936. The ever-weak Third Republic could
> only say "Vous pouvez compter sur moi," but could do nothing.

And therefore German nazis conquered Belgium, Holland, Luxembourg and France
much faster than Poland in Sept.-Oct. 1939. See "Fall Gelb".

It was a strange British and French loyalty to their Polish ally : they
declared war with Germany but it was a war without a single shot.

Jerzy

Nick

2005-04-10, 9:51 pm

Jerzy Ciruk wrote:

quote:

>
> Nick wrote:
>
> Now I expect a long series about Polish Nationalism
> form the anonymous coward "Nick".

Please note that Jerzy Ciruk does *not* dispute
the *historical facts* that I mentioned (above).
*If* Jerzy Ciruk had disputed those historical facts,
then I could have cited scholarly sources in my support.

But Jerzy Ciruk seems to prefer that those historical
facts *not* be mentioned at all, so he has practised
more of his characteristic name-calling against me.

quote:

> That`s what I call "Hate speech" by "Nick"

So Jerzy Ciruk, an apparent Polish nationalist, regards
mentioning some *historical facts* about Poland as
'Hate speech'.

quote:

> There`s no discussion about the huge mistakes as
> annexion by Poles Czech Cieszyn in 1938

Unlike Jerzy Ciruk here, some Polish nationalists seem
to regard Poland's forcible annexation of the Teschen
region as right.

quote:

> or about helping the Soviets by Poles during
> military intervention in Czech Republic in 1968.

As far as I can recall, some Polish military units did take
part in the Soviet military intervention into Czechslovakia
in 1968.

quote:

> However we Poles don`t re-write history

Jerzy Ciruk has acknowledged that he's not a historian,
and he clearly does *not* understand the process by which
history continues to be written and rewritten.

quote:

> and we don`t write about Czech invasion of Poland in 1938

Could Jerzy Ciruk please cite some details about this
alleged 'Czech invasion of Poland in *1938*' and some
supporting scholarly historical sources?

Here's what Jerzy Ciruk *might* be confused about :

In 1939, Germany helped to establish a nominally
'independent' Slovakia, which in reality was one
of Hitler's satellites. When Germany invaded Poland
in September 1939, a few Slovakian (not 'Czech')
units did take part alongside the Germans.
The Slovakians might have regarded their role
as retribution in part for Poland's earlier
forcible annexation of the Teschen region.

quote:

> or in 1968 like British "Guardian" which wrote
> about "Polish death camps".

I cannot recall having read that article.
Could Jerzy Ciruk please post it?

As a general observation, a historian's responsibility
is to do his or her best to determine the historical facts
and then to explain how those facts relate to one another.
Many proud nationalists (not only in Poland) strongly
prefer their favourite 'history books' should tell stories
that glorify their favourite countries as much as possible.
But that kind of 'history book' belongs to the realm of
fiction, not of fact.

--Nick

David Ames

2005-04-11, 3:59 am

Hans J=F8rgen Lassen wrote:

quote:

> "Jerzy" wrote:
>
Jews[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> Many bad things happened in Denmark during the war.
>
> One of the worst was the cooperation of the Danish police with the

Germans

quote:

> to imprison Communists. An illegal operation according to normal law,

but

quote:

> noone were held responsible after the war, as far as I remember.
>
> One of the few positive things was that almost all Jews were helped

quote:

> escape. Compared to other countries the survival rate was extremely

high.

quote:

> Why, I do not know.
>
> HansJ

David Ames

2005-04-11, 3:59 am

Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (wlod) wrote:

quote:

>
> PS. Your Brittain tricked Poland into WWII skillfully.
> I don't know if you appreciate the sneakiness
> of your leaders from the past. They did good job
> (for Brittain). They would not get away with that
> if Jozef Pilsudski were alive. He saw what was going
> to happen before he died, and he even told the Polish
> leaders who were going to replace him:
>
> Don't go into this war. Without me you will lose it.
>
> Most likely, in the view of British and French stand,
> Pilsudski would avoid a direct confrontation with
> Hitler (and Stalin), and would leave the honor of
> starting WWII to Brittain and France. Poland would
> then save a few million of its citizens, while
> France and Brittain would understand the things quite
> a bit better, if you got more pounding from Hitler.
> Then your opinion also would be more humble and
> more reasonable.

BarbaraVilliers

2005-04-11, 5:59 pm