Chess politics - Will Sloan explain Fischer?

Author

Will Sloan explain Fischer?

Taylor Kingston

2005-03-31, 6:00 pm

Sam Sloan wrote:

quote:

> You seem to forget that I am a person who has had both my mother and
> my daughter kidnapped through the help of the Government of the

United

quote:

> States.
> My daughter was kidnapped in Abu Dhabi United Arab Emirates and held
> for ten years until she became an adult.
> My mother was kidnapped in Bangkok,Thailand and held for 12 years
> until she died.

My sympathies for these misfortunes suffered by you and your kin.
However, they do not bear on the topic at hand. We are discussing your
contention that when Bobby Fischer said the USA deserves "death" and
should be "wiped out," these words did not mean what they commonly
denote.
Please explain to us what you believe Fischer actually meant when he
said "Death to President Bush! Death to the United States!" and "I want
to see the United States wiped out! Once and for all!"

quote:

> Many people share the views of Bobby Fischer.

Yes, Osama bin Laden being one example. But the question at hand is
not who shares Fischer's views, but what you believe them actually to
be with regard to the "death" and "wiping out" of the USA. Please
explain?

Ray Gordon

2005-04-01, 3:54 am

>> You seem to forget that I am a person who has had both my mother and

quote:

> United
>
> My sympathies for these misfortunes suffered by you and your kin.
> However, they do not bear on the topic at hand. We are discussing your
> contention that when Bobby Fischer said the USA deserves "death" and
> should be "wiped out," these words did not mean what they commonly
> denote.
> Please explain to us what you believe Fischer actually meant when he
> said "Death to President Bush! Death to the United States!" and "I want
> to see the United States wiped out! Once and for all!"

My question is simple: who cares?

Fischer is a CHESSPLAYER. A former world champion. Can't we just leave it
at that?

I'm more curious to know how well he'd fare against the top players today
than what his politics are. Hate him all you want for what he spews, but
chess is supposed to be about putting personal stuff aside.

The game's the thing, and two of the best players of this century retired
way before they should have. Let's bring them out for a match and work from
there.

--
Ray Gordon, Author
http://www.cybersheet.com/easy.html
Seduction Made Easy. Get this book FREE when you buy participating
affiliated books!

http://www.cybersheet.com/library.html
The Seduction Library. Four free books to get you started on your quest to
get laid.

Don't buy anything from experts who won't debate on a free speech forum.

Taylor Kingston

2005-04-01, 5:58 pm

Ray Gordon wrote:

quote:

> My question is simple: who cares?
> Fischer is a CHESSPLAYER. A former world champion. Can't we just

leave it

quote:

> at that?

Ray, you do not quite understand my point. My question is directed
not at Fischer but at Sloan, to explain what I consider his faulty
interpretation of Fischer's words. I'd also like Sam to explain the
flip-flop implicit in his last post in this thread.
Given Sloan's political ambitions in the USCF, I feel this is quite
relevant, and that he owes it to readers of this group.

Sam Sloan

2005-04-01, 5:58 pm

On 1 Apr 2005 05:02:47 -0800, "Taylor Kingston"
<tkingston@chittenden.com> wrote:

quote:

>Ray Gordon wrote:
>leave it
>
> Ray, you do not quite understand my point. My question is directed
>not at Fischer but at Sloan, to explain what I consider his faulty
>interpretation of Fischer's words. I'd also like Sam to explain the
>flip-flop implicit in his last post in this thread.
> Given Sloan's political ambitions in the USCF, I feel this is quite
>relevant, and that he owes it to readers of this group.

I have answered this question before and I generally try to avoid
repeating myself.

I cannot interpret Fischer's words because I am not Fischer and I have
not seen him in awhile.

All I can say is that your interpretation of Fischer's words is
nonsese. For example, you claim that Fischer said that he wants to see
the death of all 250 million people in the United States. That is not
true, especially since in the same broadcast Fischer said "That's the
Danger" that someone might be killed.

Fischer had been called from the Philippines and was speaking during
the first moments after the first airplane hit and before either of
the twin towers fell. He possibly did not know that somebody had been
killed.

Sam Sloan

Taylor Kingston

2005-04-01, 5:58 pm

Sam Sloan wrote:

quote:

> I have answered this question before and I generally try to avoid
> repeating myself.

You also generally avoid answering a question at all when you realize
you are caught out, as you are now.

quote:

> All I can say is that your interpretation of Fischer's words is
> nonsese.

But I am not interpreting at all, Sam -- I am taking what he says at
literal face value. It is you who claim that Fischer did not really
mean what he said.

For example, you claim that Fischer said that he wants to see

quote:

> the death of all 250 million people in the United States. That is

not

quote:

> true ...

Ahem. That is the literal meaning of "I want to see the United States
wiped out! Once and for all! ... I say: death to President Bush, death
to the United States," which Fischer said on 9/11/2001. Look up the
terms "death" and "wiped out" in your dictionary.
If you want to cherish a delusion that Fischer was somehow speaking
metaphorically, feel free. But don't expect anyone with any sense to go
along.

John A Swartz

2005-04-01, 5:58 pm

quote:

>
> I have answered this question before and I generally try to avoid
> repeating myself.
>

You've GOT to be kidding me...

Sam Sloan

2005-04-01, 5:58 pm

On 1 Apr 2005 07:08:59 -0800, "Taylor Kingston"
<tkingston@chittenden.com> wrote:

quote:

>
>Sam Sloan wrote:
>
> You also generally avoid answering a question at all when you realize
>you are caught out, as you are now.
>
>
> But I am not interpreting at all, Sam -- I am taking what he says at
>literal face value. It is you who claim that Fischer did not really
>mean what he said.
>
>
> Ahem. That is the literal meaning of "I want to see the United States
>wiped out!

That is not the meaning at all.

When the Soviet Union was in existence, many people said: "I want to
see the Soviet Union wiped out!" That did not mean that they wanted
to see everybody in the Soviet Union killed.

Moreover what Fischer said in the heat of the moment four hears ago
probably has little bearing on what his opinions are now.

SamSloan

Taylor Kingston

2005-04-01, 5:58 pm

Sam Sloan wrote:

quote:

> When the Soviet Union was in existence, many people said: "I want to
> see the Soviet Union wiped out!" That did not mean that they wanted
> to see everybody in the Soviet Union killed.

Actually many did mean it. The mentality represented by Walter
Matthau's character in "Fail Safe" did exist not too long ago.
But returning to your belief that Fischer was speaking
metaphorically, when he said "Death to President Bush" he really meant
"Vote Democrat"? I find it amazing that you, who writes so much in
support of Bush, would also waste your time grasping at straws to make
contrived excuses for a man who wants him dead. Do you not see just the
slightest inconsistency in this?
And I suppose "Death to the United States" really meant "God bless
America"? And when Fischer said "Jews use Christian children. They
murder them and use their blood for their black magic ceremonies," it
was code for ... what?

Nick

2005-04-01, 9:55 pm

Taylor Kingston wrote:

quote:

> Sam Sloan wrote:
>
> Actually many did mean it. The mentality represented by Walter
> Matthau's character in "Fail Safe" did exist not too long ago.

Gordon H Chang (who should *not* be confused with Gordon G Chang,
another writer about China), who's now a professor of history
at Stanford University, won the 1987 Louis Pelzer Memorial Award
of the American Historical Association for his original research
that found that the United States, led by President John F Kennedy,
was keen to launch a military (perhaps a nuclear) first strike
against China around 1963 in order to stop the Chinese from
completing their development of the atomic bomb. But the
United States was unable to convince the Soviet Union to
cooperate with its 'preemptive war' plan against China,
and hence the United States decided to avoid the risk of
a major conflict with the Soviet Union about China.

quote:

> But returning to your belief that Fischer was speaking
> metaphorically, when he said "Death to President Bush"
> he really meant "Vote Democrat"? I find it amazing that you,
> who writes so much in support of Bush, would also waste your
> time grasping at straws to make contrived excuses for a man
> who wants him dead. Do you not see just the slightest
> inconsistency in this?

"That's why Sam (Sloan), since early 1995, is among the
most valuable participants or rgc*, not second to anybody."
--Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (6 February 2005, RGCM)

Would Taylor Kingston agree with Wlodzimierz Holsztynski?

--Nick

_@_._

2005-04-01, 9:55 pm

Sam Sloan wrote:

quote:

>I cannot interpret Fischer's words because I am not Fischer

That never stopped you before.

All right-thinking people should oppose Sam Sloan for any position
within any chess body for one simple reason; He pollutes the
rec.games.chess.computer newsgroup with posts that are not about
computer chess. That alone disqualifies him. If he is too stupid
or too rude to post in the right place, he is too stupid or too
rude to be allowed to screw anything else up.

Nick

2005-04-01, 9:55 pm

Taylor Kingston wrote (to Sam Sloan):

quote:

> (snipped--I already have responded to it.)
> And I suppose "Death to the United States" really meant
> "God bless America"? ...

This comment is *not* about Bobby Fischer in particular.

Since 1979 in Iran there have been many public demonstrations
in which crowds have chanted (in Farsi) 'Death to America!'
But it's wrong to conclude that means that everyone there
*literally* desires the deaths of everyone in the United States.

In fact, many Iranians (including some people who sometimes
have chanted 'Death to America') *do* respect and like some
Americans as individual human beings. Many young Iranians
seem to like much about American popular culture, apart
from its usual ignorant and racist stereotypes of Iranians.

(Note to the trolls: I have written about the Iranians who
'respect and like *some* Americans' because it's not true
that those Iranians respect and like *all* Americans, and
it's not true that those Iranians respect and like *no*
Americans. Reality tends *not* to be 'all or nothing'.)

Here's an article, 'Another Country' by Rageh Omaar, about
Iran today and the dominant American stereotypes of it:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/iran/stor...1449923,00.html

I happen to know an Iranian woman (who has a Ph.D. in
mathematics), who has lived for many years in the United
States. I can recall asking her whether anything could be
done effectively to address American stereotypes of Iranians.
She said that she thought that nearly all Americans seemed
far more comfortable in holding their favourite ignorant
stereotypes about Iranians than in accepting the much
more complex and nuanced set of facts about Iranians.

--Nick

_@_._

2005-04-01, 9:55 pm

Taylor Kingston wrote:

quote:

>And when Fischer said "Jews use Christian children. They
>murder them and use their blood for their black magic ceremonies,"
>it >was code for ... what?

It was code for "Sam Sloan keeps flooding the computer chess group
with posts about politics. Death to Sam Sloan! I want to see Sam
Sloan wiped out!"

Taylor Kingston

2005-04-01, 9:55 pm

Nick wrote:

quote:

> "That's why Sam (Sloan), since early 1995, is among the
> most valuable participants or rgc*, not second to anybody."
> --Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (6 February 2005, RGCM)
>
> Would Taylor Kingston agree with Wlodzimierz Holsztynski?

The bulk of the quoted post was a small part of the enormous quantity
of mud which Wlod and Nick have thrown at each other. I take no side in
that quarrel.
If Wlod was genuinely praising Sloan, and not just feigning
admiration for purposes of rhetorical contrast, then I would say our
assessments of Sam obviously differ. However, other Wlod posts make it
clear he disagrees strongly with Sloan on some issues, Fischer perhaps
most of all, so I'm not sure how sincere the above statement was.

Morphy's ghost

2005-04-01, 9:55 pm

In the year of our Lord 1 Apr 2005 15:56:54 -0800, "Nick"
<nickbourbaki3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

quote:

>Taylor Kingston wrote (to Sam Sloan):
>
>This comment is *not* about Bobby Fischer in particular.
>
>Since 1979 in Iran there have been many public demonstrations
>in which crowds have chanted (in Farsi) 'Death to America!'
>But it's wrong to conclude that means that everyone there
>*literally* desires the deaths of everyone in the United States.
>
>In fact, many Iranians (including some people who sometimes
>have chanted 'Death to America') *do* respect and like some
>Americans as individual human beings. Many young Iranians
>seem to like much about American popular culture, apart
>from its usual ignorant and racist stereotypes of Iranians.

Ignorant and racist stereotypes are what lead people to chant "Death
to America!" to begin with. I realize that you like to believe that
it is only Americans who act and react based on stereotypes, but it
just isn't so. I'm glad that you had the chance to meet an intelligent
and well-travelled woman who demonstrated that not all Iranians are
motivated by such ignorance fear. Nevertheless, it would be foolish
to try to deny that many are so motivated.

quote:

>
>I happen to know an Iranian woman (who has a Ph.D. in
>mathematics), who has lived for many years in the United
>States. I can recall asking her whether anything could be
>done effectively to address American stereotypes of Iranians.
>She said that she thought that nearly all Americans seemed
>far more comfortable in holding their favourite ignorant
>stereotypes about Iranians than in accepting the much
>more complex and nuanced set of facts about Iranians.
>
>--Nick
>

Truth can never be told so as to be understood, and not be
believ'd.-- William Blake

Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (wlod)

2005-04-02, 6:52 am

Taylor Kingston wrote:

quote:

> If Wlod was genuinely praising Sloan, and not just feigning
> admiration for purposes of rhetorical contrast, then I would say our
> assessments of Sam obviously differ.

Compared to "Nick" Boobaki, anybody
is a giant, and not second to anybody
else (the difference between the others
being of so much lesser magnitude).

Regards,

Wlod