Chess politics - A Few Simple Questions For Don Schultz

Author

A Few Simple Questions For Don Schultz

Duncan Oxley

2005-01-25, 5:46 pm

Why is it so important NOW that "We must have the full numbers
of what the total move will cost."?

(I submit that this can possibly only be answered honestly after all the
dust settles
in Crossville. An estimate, sure, but "the full numbers"? I may be a
neophyte here
but somehow I doubt that with ANY move of this kind "the full numbers" can
be
stated before everything is finished.)

Are, and if so, WHY are you and Brady actively working to derail the move?

There seems to be at least three recent EB meetings with no minutes posted
to the USCF site. As Secretary can you tell us when they will be available
for
viewing (or listening rather) and why they can not be posted in a timely
manner?

Best Regards,
Duncan Oxley

chessdon@aol.com

2005-01-25, 5:46 pm

Duncan Oxley wrote:

quote:

> Why is it so important NOW that "We must have the full numbers
> of what the total move will cost."?
>
> (I submit that this can possibly only be answered honestly after all

the

quote:

> dust settles
> in Crossville. An estimate, sure, but "the full numbers"? I may be a
> neophyte here
> but somehow I doubt that with ANY move of this kind "the full

numbers" can

quote:

> be
> stated before everything is finished.)
>
> Are, and if so, WHY are you and Brady actively working to derail the

move?

quote:

>
> There seems to be at least three recent EB meetings with no minutes

posted

quote:

> to the USCF site. As Secretary can you tell us when they will be

available

quote:

> for
> viewing (or listening rather) and why they can not be posted in a

timely

quote:

> manner?

My reply:

It is ludicrous not to have at least an estimate of all the costs. Of
course exact figures are not known but an estimate of total costs and
an estimate of cash flow must be available, I have not seen them.

Brady and I are NOT working actively to derail the Crossville move! The
folks in Crossville are outstanding. However, I have a duty to make
sure the USCF doesn't go belly-up in the process. We are moving at an
accelerated pace, during the busiest time of the year, when we have no
Executive Director, when we are installing an entirely new office
computer system, and it being only a year after we nearly couldn't pay
our bills, and furthermore amid a time of revelations that we don't
have as much money as we thought we did due to inadequate financial
reporting and at a time, as would be expected, of extremely low office
morale and following a turn down of one of the wealthiest individuals
in the world to grant two weeks to come up with an improvement on an
offer of free rent for five years + option to buy a mansion on 19 acres
of land, in the best part of Liberty, NY, directly next door to the
billionaire's mansion. I respect my fellow Board members desire to get
on with the move. But I and Frank Brady will no doubt continue to be
the devil's advocate. Would you prefer all yeses and praise and no one
asking the tough questions at each step of the way. I admire the work
on the move Beatriz has already done. She has so far exceeded what I
thought possible but still the most difficult obstacles are yet to
come.

As to minutes, they have been made available. I;ve only been Secretary
for a few meetings and all those have been quickly reported. I know
there was a recording problem mixing closed with open some time back
but I am not familiar with that. I completed a draft of the minutes of
Sunday's teleconference and sent them to the EB members immediately
after finishing them. I doubt if any secretary has ever had a draft
available so fast. And it was a difficult draft to write becaus of
amendments and substitute motions to motions.
Regards and good chess,
Don Schultz
Secretary

chessdon@aol.com

2005-01-25, 5:46 pm

Duncan Oxley wrote:

quote:

> Why is it so important NOW that "We must have the full numbers
> of what the total move will cost."?
>
> (I submit that this can possibly only be answered honestly after all

the

quote:

> dust settles
> in Crossville. An estimate, sure, but "the full numbers"? I may be a
> neophyte here
> but somehow I doubt that with ANY move of this kind "the full

numbers" can

quote:

> be
> stated before everything is finished.)
>
> Are, and if so, WHY are you and Brady actively working to derail the

move?

quote:

>
> There seems to be at least three recent EB meetings with no minutes

posted

quote:

> to the USCF site. As Secretary can you tell us when they will be

available

quote:

> for
> viewing (or listening rather) and why they can not be posted in a

timely

quote:

> manner?

George John

2005-01-25, 9:47 pm

chessdon@aol.com wrote:

Don,

[SNIP]

quote:

> As to minutes, they have been made available. I;ve only been

Secretary

quote:

> for a few meetings and all those have been quickly reported. I know
> there was a recording problem mixing closed with open some time back
> but I am not familiar with that.

As the USCF's Secretary I believe you are responsible for making
certain the following (see below) USCF Board of Delegates motion is
carried out satisfactorily. Please provide an estimate when all
required audio recordings will be posted to the USCF Website.

I believe you have said you think the BINFO system should be
reactivated. I agree. What is your opinion regarding having written
transcripts of meetings? Finally, being the USCF Secretary is a lot of
work. What do you think about the idea of shifting some of the worker
bee duties to professional staff provided they can handle the workload?

Best regards,

George John

"All meetings of the Executive Board, including conference calls,
shall be recorded in their entirety with a clear, permanent record by
a means determined by the Executive Board. All Executive Board members
shall receive copies of any audio tapes or video tapes of meetings
within two weeks of those meetings. Any person wishing to obtain
copies of audiotapes may do so at cost. The public portion of the
permanent record will be available on the web-site within a month of
the meeting record."

Duncan Oxley

2005-01-25, 9:47 pm

<chessdon@aol.com> wrote in message

Thanks for answering. A few quick comments.

quote:

> It is ludicrous not to have at least an estimate of all the costs. Of
> course exact figures are not known but an estimate of total costs and
> an estimate of cash flow must be available, I have not seen them.
>

OK so now we are talking estimate. Great.

quote:

> Brady and I are NOT working actively to derail the Crossville move!

Thank goodness.

quote:

>The
> folks in Crossville are outstanding. However, I have a duty to make
> sure the USCF doesn't go belly-up in the process.

I would think that was the duty of the Board as a whole.

quote:

>We are moving at an
> accelerated pace,

Good.

quote:

>during the busiest time of the year, when we have no
> Executive Director, when we are installing an entirely new office
> computer system, and it being only a year after we nearly couldn't pay
> our bills, and furthermore amid a time of revelations that we don't
> have as much money as we thought we did due to inadequate financial
> reporting and at a time, as would be expected, of extremely low office
> morale and following a turn down of one of the wealthiest individuals
> in the world to grant two weeks to come up with an improvement on an
> offer of free rent for five years + option to buy a mansion on 19 acres
> of land, in the best part of Liberty, NY, directly next door to the
> billionaire's mansion.

I wish you would stop bringing this up. That won't happen I believe.

Or should not. *shrug*

quote:

>I respect my fellow Board members desire to get
> on with the move. But I and Frank Brady will no doubt continue to be
> the devil's advocate. Would you prefer all yeses and praise and no one
> asking the tough questions at each step of the way. I admire the work
> on the move Beatriz has already done. She has so far exceeded what I
> thought possible but still the most difficult obstacles are yet to
> come.
>

Good then hopefully you will work with her instead of against.

quote:

> As to minutes, they have been made available. I;ve only been Secretary
> for a few meetings and all those have been quickly reported. I know
> there was a recording problem mixing closed with open some time back
> but I am not familiar with that. I completed a draft of the minutes of
> Sunday's teleconference and sent them to the EB members immediately
> after finishing them. I doubt if any secretary has ever had a draft
> available so fast. And it was a difficult draft to write becaus of
> amendments and substitute motions to motions.

OK my bad. I said minutes but I was really looking for the recordings.

I appericate your reply,
Duncan Oxley

quote:

> Regards and good chess,
> Don Schultz
> Secretary
>

Tim Hanke

2005-01-25, 9:47 pm

<chessdon@aol.com> wrote ...

quote:

>
> It is ludicrous not to have at least an estimate of all the costs. Of
> course exact figures are not known but an estimate of total costs and
> an estimate of cash flow must be available, I have not seen them.

There have been numerous board discussions of moving costs, and the board
members (including Don Schultz and Frank Brady) have been given a detailed
itemization of the major moving costs to be expected, with an estimated
total. The office is continuing to work on fine-tuning the numbers.

However, Don and Frank keep pretending they haven't been told anything.

I, and the other members of the board, have invited Don and Frank to
participate in the regular Relocation Committee conference calls, and to
participate in the process in any other way they wish. If there is anything
Don and Frank don't know, it is because they have their eyes shut tight and
their fingers in their ears.

It is easy for Frank Brady to pretend not to know anything, because he
doesn't go to meetings, or apparently read his email. But Don knows better,
because Don does attend meetings and does read his email.

Tim Hanke

Duncan Oxley

2005-01-25, 9:47 pm

"Tim Hanke" <timothyhanke@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:QIqdnSF1puNYQGvcRVn-3g@comcast.com...

quote:

> <chessdon@aol.com> wrote ...
>
> There have been numerous board discussions of moving costs, and the board
> members (including Don Schultz and Frank Brady) have been given a detailed
> itemization of the major moving costs to be expected, with an estimated
> total. The office is continuing to work on fine-tuning the numbers.
>
> However, Don and Frank keep pretending they haven't been told anything.
>
> I, and the other members of the board, have invited Don and Frank to
> participate in the regular Relocation Committee conference calls, and to
> participate in the process in any other way they wish. If there is
> anything Don and Frank don't know, it is because they have their eyes shut
> tight and their fingers in their ears.
>
> It is easy for Frank Brady to pretend not to know anything, because he
> doesn't go to meetings, or apparently read his email. But Don knows
> better, because Don does attend meetings and does read his email.
>
> Tim Hanke
>

Tim:

The more I see what some call "the old guard" rail against the move
the more I become convinced this will be the best thing that happened
the USCF in 30 years.

Duncan

chessdon@aol.com

2005-01-25, 9:47 pm

Tim Hanke wrote:

quote:

> <chessdon@aol.com> wrote ...
Of[vbcol=seagreen]
and[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> There have been numerous board discussions of moving costs, and the

board

quote:

> members (including Don Schultz and Frank Brady) have been given a

detailed

quote:

> itemization of the major moving costs to be expected, with an

estimated

quote:

> total. The office is continuing to work on fine-tuning the numbers.
>
> However, Don and Frank keep pretending they haven't been told

anything.

quote:

>
> I, and the other members of the board, have invited Don and Frank to
> participate in the regular Relocation Committee conference calls, and

quote:

> participate in the process in any other way they wish. If there is

anything

quote:

> Don and Frank don't know, it is because they have their eyes shut

tight and

quote:

> their fingers in their ears.
>
> It is easy for Frank Brady to pretend not to know anything, because

quote:

> doesn't go to meetings, or apparently read his email. But Don knows

better,

quote:

> because Don does attend meetings and does read his email.
>
> Tim Hanke

The meeting and the financial reporting doesn't cover the whole ball of
wax. Here is the challenge. If we have estimates of what it is costing
us to move to Crossville - place the numbers here with a breakdown into
half a dozen or so major components, best estimates even guesstimates
accepted. That information is not confidential.

Don Schultz

Tim Hanke

2005-01-26, 3:45 am

<chessdon@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1106701940.988095.139590@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

quote:

>
> Tim Hanke wrote:
> Of
> and
> board
> detailed
> estimated
> anything.
> to
> anything
> tight and
> he
> better,
>
> The meeting and the financial reporting doesn't cover the whole ball of
> wax. Here is the challenge. If we have estimates of what it is costing
> us to move to Crossville - place the numbers here with a breakdown into
> half a dozen or so major components, best estimates even guesstimates
> accepted. That information is not confidential.
>
> Don Schultz

Don,

You have the same board emails on this subject that I do. If you want to
post them publicly, no one can stop you.

One underlying problem, in discussing financial issues with you, is that you
don't seem to understand basic principles of accounting and cash flow. I
mean no ill will in saying this, but it's a fact.

For example, on Sunday, during the board conference call, you insisted the
cost of the new building should be added to the move expenses. However, the
building will be a USCF asset, not a USCF expense, as Randy Bauer explained
to you. This is the kind of basic financial point you don't understand.

Not to mention, you refuse to face the fact that USCF was previously paying
more $$ per month to rent extra office and storage space, than USCF will be
paying $$ per month for the new mortgage in Crossville. Our rental expenses
were buying us nothing, but our mortgage will buy us equity in a modern
office building in a prime business location in a growing business area.

In other words, moving to Crossville is already a huge financial win, even
if we are talking only about office space. Once we get into wages, property
taxes, insurance, etc., the savings add up more and more.

What I am interested in is not so much the "cost of the move," whatever that
means, as I am in the future operating costs of the USCF as compared to the
present operating costs.

I am convinced the operating costs in Crossville will be very, very much
lower than they would have been in the abandoned hospital building in
Liberty, N.Y., that you and Frank Brady and Bill Goichberg are still so
enamored of. What about the long-term maintenance costs of that white
elephant, with its 33 bathrooms, slate roof, antiquated heating system and
wiring, likely asbestos removal problem, etc., etc.? I wouldn't want that
building as a gift. Yet you, because you apparently don't understand basic
accounting concepts--and again, I state this merely as an observation, not
as a personal attack--would reject the new building in Crossville because
you think it is an "expense," while you take no account of the future
maintenance costs of the old hospital in Liberty, N.Y., which could be
millions of dollars.

When you and Bill Goichberg were running the USCF just a few years ago, the
USCF lost hundreds of thousands of dollars and took major strides toward
insolvency. But it seems you and Bill were the last to realize what was
going on--if, indeed, you even realize it yet.

Now Bill Goichberg is running for the board yet again. If he has his way,
USCF will become ensnarled in a long-term financial mess in Liberty, N.Y.
that will make the controversy over his outsourcing deal look minor.

We don't need more financial double-talk from people who have failed badly
at managing USCF in the past. We don't need a wild venture into real estate
speculation in old abandoned buildings with sizeable unknown risks.

We need to operate USCF on clean, simple lines, with low-risk, low-overhead
operations, and a minimum of staff, using the latest technology. This is the
direction the current board majority is trying to move in, despite
continuous screaming and heel-dragging by those who are still living in the
past.

Tim Hanke

chessdon@aol.com

2005-01-26, 3:45 am

Dear Tim:

I must say you have ademonstrated in tne past that you have an open
mind and you do alter your position when convinced. I'm truly concerned
about Crossville particulary the costs. Now clearly you have a
bettergrasp on those costs than I. That is why I am secretary and you
arre Vice-President of Finance; I say this only partially in jest
because I know I am not qualified to be Treasurer/VP Finance. You are a
fine Board member and I enjoy working with you.

Now of course there is a BUT.

Not about your being a fine Board Member and I enjoy working with you
BUT FOR EXAMPLE,

You saidat the start of this message:: "You (Don) have the same board
emails on this subject that I do. If you want to post them publicly, no
one can stop you."

Tim I'm saying I don't have the emails and numbers that give
estimates/guesstimates of the cost to USCF of the move let alone
broken down into half a dozen or so components. So I can't post them. I
say we don't have them, you say we do and that I have them and the onus
is on me to post them which of course would prove you are right. If I
can't post them then that is consistent with my being right. So ...
what do you say my friend?
Prove me wrong, post them and we can move on. In addition I'd like to
see a cash flow chart through the final move into the new building.
Sincerely,
Don

Jerzy

2005-01-26, 11:46 am

<chessdon@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1106725547.060147.253980@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

quote:

> Now of course there is a BUT.
>
> Not about your being a fine Board Member and I enjoy working with you
> BUT FOR EXAMPLE,
>
> You saidat the start of this message:: "You (Don) have the same board
> emails on this subject that I do. If you want to post them publicly, no
> one can stop you."
>
> Tim I'm saying I don't have the emails and numbers that give
> estimates/guesstimates of the cost to USCF of the move let alone
> broken down into half a dozen or so components. So I can't post them. I
> say we don't have them, you say we do and that I have them and the onus
> is on me to post them which of course would prove you are right. If I
> can't post them then that is consistent with my being right.

So if Tim Hanke have them and they are not confidential why not leak them
here ? If it`s such a great deal as he`s claiming here then publishing them
will dissolve all doubts of the USCF members at least as far as financial
matters are involved.

:-)

Regards,

Jerzy

StanB

2005-01-26, 11:46 am

Gee whiz Timmy, get a hold of yourself. That's what Don does. Drink some
Merlot. Drink until you become belligerent. That's what Don does.

"Tim Hanke" <timothyhanke@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:A8KdncdQ-JMLlWrcRVn-vQ@comcast.com...

quote:

> <chessdon@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:1106701940.988095.139590@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> Don,
>
> You have the same board emails on this subject that I do. If you want to
> post them publicly, no one can stop you.
>
> One underlying problem, in discussing financial issues with you, is that
> you don't seem to understand basic principles of accounting and cash flow.
> I mean no ill will in saying this, but it's a fact.
>
> For example, on Sunday, during the board conference call, you insisted the
> cost of the new building should be added to the move expenses. However,
> the building will be a USCF asset, not a USCF expense, as Randy Bauer
> explained to you. This is the kind of basic financial point you don't
> understand.
>
> Not to mention, you refuse to face the fact that USCF was previously
> paying more $$ per month to rent extra office and storage space, than USCF
> will be paying $$ per month for the new mortgage in Crossville. Our rental
> expenses were buying us nothing, but our mortgage will buy us equity in a
> modern office building in a prime business location in a growing business
> area.
>
> In other words, moving to Crossville is already a huge financial win, even
> if we are talking only about office space. Once we get into wages,
> property taxes, insurance, etc., the savings add up more and more.
>
> What I am interested in is not so much the "cost of the move," whatever
> that means, as I am in the future operating costs of the USCF as compared
> to the present operating costs.
>
> I am convinced the operating costs in Crossville will be very, very much
> lower than they would have been in the abandoned hospital building in
> Liberty, N.Y., that you and Frank Brady and Bill Goichberg are still so
> enamored of. What about the long-term maintenance costs of that white
> elephant, with its 33 bathrooms, slate roof, antiquated heating system and
> wiring, likely asbestos removal problem, etc., etc.? I wouldn't want that
> building as a gift. Yet you, because you apparently don't understand basic
> accounting concepts--and again, I state this merely as an observation, not
> as a personal attack--would reject the new building in Crossville because
> you think it is an "expense," while you take no account of the future
> maintenance costs of the old hospital in Liberty, N.Y., which could be
> millions of dollars.
>
> When you and Bill Goichberg were running the USCF just a few years ago,
> the USCF lost hundreds of thousands of dollars and took major strides
> toward insolvency. But it seems you and Bill were the last to realize what
> was going on--if, indeed, you even realize it yet.
>
> Now Bill Goichberg is running for the board yet again. If he has his way,
> USCF will become ensnarled in a long-term financial mess in Liberty, N.Y.
> that will make the controversy over his outsourcing deal look minor.
>
> We don't need more financial double-talk from people who have failed badly
> at managing USCF in the past. We don't need a wild venture into real
> estate speculation in old abandoned buildings with sizeable unknown risks.
>
> We need to operate USCF on clean, simple lines, with low-risk,
> low-overhead operations, and a minimum of staff, using the latest
> technology. This is the direction the current board majority is trying to
> move in, despite continuous screaming and heel-dragging by those who are
> still living in the past.
>
> Tim Hanke
>

StanB

2005-01-26, 11:46 am

<chessdon@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1106725547.060147.253980@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

quote:

> Dear Tim:
>
> I must say you have ademonstrated in tne past that you have an open
> mind and you do alter your position when convinced. I'm truly concerned
> about Crossville particulary the costs. Now clearly you have a
> bettergrasp on those costs than I. That is why I am secretary and you
> arre Vice-President of Finance; I say this only partially in jest
> because I know I am not qualified to be Treasurer/VP Finance. You are a
> fine Board member and I enjoy working with you.

Wow that's wonderful. Do you swallow too?

Louis Blair

2005-01-26, 11:46 am

Don Schultz wrote:

quote:

> It is ludicrous not to have at least an
> estimate of all the costs. Of course exact
> figures are not known but an estimate of
> total costs and an estimate of cash flow
> must be available, I have not seen them.

_
Timothy Hanke wrote:

quote:

> the board members (including Don Schultz
> and Frank Brady) have been given a detailed
> itemization of the major moving costs to be
> expected, with an estimated total. The
> office is continuing to work on fine-tuning
> the numbers.
>
> However, Don and Frank keep pretending they
> haven't been told anything.

_
Where did they write that they were not told
anything?

_
Timothy Hanke wrote:

quote:

> I, and the other members of the board, have
> invited Don and Frank to participate in the
> regular Relocation Committee conference
> calls, and to participate in the process in
> any other way they wish. If there is
> anything Don and Frank don't know, it is
> because they have their eyes shut tight and
> their fingers in their ears.

_
So, what is the "estimated total"?

Tim Hanke

2005-01-26, 11:46 am

<chessdon@aol.com> wrote ...

quote:

>
> Tim I'm saying I don't have the emails and numbers that give
> estimates/guesstimates of the cost to USCF of the move let alone
> broken down into half a dozen or so components. So I can't post them. I
> say we don't have them, you say we do and that I have them and the onus
> is on me to post them which of course would prove you are right. If I
> can't post them then that is consistent with my being right. So ...
> what do you say my friend?
> Prove me wrong, post them and we can move on. In addition I'd like to
> see a cash flow chart through the final move into the new building.
> Sincerely,
> Don

Don,

I can't imagine you don't have the same information I do.

I have no problem posting the information I have, but I think it should be a
board decision, not mine alone. Particularly because I know the numbers are
constantly being worked on.

So I will email the board members as a group and ask them what they think.
Fair enough?

Tim Hanke

Louis Blair

2005-01-26, 11:46 am

Tim Hanke wrote:

quote:

> What I am interested in is not so much the
> "cost of the move," whatever that means, as
> I am in the future operating costs of the
> USCF as compared to the present operating
> costs.

_
Just a little earlier, Timothy Hanke was
telling us of an "estimated total" moving
cost. Is there one or isn't there? If
there is, what is it?

Parrthenon

2005-01-26, 11:46 am

ANOTHER BIZARRE EXCHANGE

<Tim I'm saying I don't have the emails and numbers that give
estimates/guesstimates of the cost to USCF of the move let alone broken down
into half a dozen or so components. So I can't post them. I say we don't have
them, you say we do and that I have them and the onus is on me to post them
which of course would prove you are right. If I can't post them then that is
consistent with my being right. So ...what do you say my friend? Prove me
wrong, post them and we can move on. In addition I'd like to see a cash flow
chart through the final move into the new building.> -- Don Schultz to USCF
treasurer Tim Hanke

<I can't imagine you don't have the same information I do. I have no problem
posting the information I have, but I think it should be a board decision, not
mine alone. Particularly because I know the numbers are constantly being worked
on. So I will email the board members as a group and ask them what they think.
Fair enough?> -- Tim Hanke to secretary Don Schultz

Earlier, Bill Goichberg said the Board had seen the ChessCafe
contract and that the only change made was an amount of insurance required. Tim
flatly denied having seen the contract. Where does that stand? Did our
treasurer read the single most important contract signed and acted upon in
recent years?

Now, Tim Hanke claims that cost estimates for Cross-to-Bear were
given to all board members. He told Don Schultz to post them but he's not sure
whether he can without permission from the board.

Don Schultz says straight out: He cannot post them because he does not have
them. Why can't Tim post them without permission from the board after telling
Don to post them?

STRANGER AND STRANGER

We are told the move to Cross-to-Bear is being run stupendously well by
prez Beatriz Marinello and the whole biz is planned, even as the Board visited
this church only a few days back after deciding to move.

You read it here for the first time: It is still not graven in stone
that the move to Cross-to-Bear will occur. There is a chance that Erik
Anderson of AF4C may push a new bid on Liberty that is so obviously superior as
to make it a breach of fiduciary responsibility to continue with the evidently
unplanned, chaotic and increasingly expensive move to Cross-to-Bear.

Separation packages, I hear, may also be highly expensive.

And so it goes.

________________________________________________________________
"FIDE has made its decision. Players who refuse to be drug tested will not be
able to play chess." -- Dr. Press, co-founder of the FIDE Medical Commission.

StanB

2005-01-27, 12:27 pm

"Parrthenon" <National Enquirer.com> wrote in message
news:20050126104016.10954.00000292@mb-m28.news.cs.com...

quote:

> You read it here for the first time: It is still not graven in
> stone
> that the move to Cross-to-Bear will occur. There is a chance that Erik
> Anderson of AF4C may push a new bid on Liberty that is so obviously
> superior as
> to make it a breach of fiduciary responsibility to continue with the
> evidently
> unplanned, chaotic and increasingly expensive move to Cross-to-Bear.

Why would he do this? What is he to gain? More board stipends? It sounds
like more pie-in-the-sky from Don Schultz. Like his promise to get us a
below market loan from his close friend Dato Tan. But then it became an
above market mortgage and then guess what. It became just another one of
Don's empty promises. No loan was to be forthcoming.

Parrthenon

2005-01-27, 12:28 pm

A DOOZY

<So what is the "estimated total"?> -- a bemused Louis Blair wondering about
the costs of moving to Crossville

I am sure there must have been more bizarre forum exchanges than the
current one between Tim Hanke and Don Schultz, yet you have to say we have a
doozy going here. A corker.

You have a member of the Board, Schultz, averring that he cannot post
estimates about the move to Crossville because he does not have them. You have
treasurer Tim Hanke saying that he does have them and that, in any event, he is
more interested in future savings than in the cost estimates. Further, he
can't release the estimates without the okay of the Board, though in another
breath he calls for Schultz to release them because he has them, which he
hasn't.

My heavens. We can't learn about the estimates because the Board
hasn't given permission and, perhaps, won't.

We can't learn about the contents of the contracts for Cross-to-Bear,
and they will not tell us about the cost to move.

But nothing is being hidden. All is above board. They are all on
top of this move with Beatriz Marinello leading the band. Their efficiency is
mind-boggling, and the church got visited only a couple of days ago.

What else besides the 60Gs to the local architect, possibly a friend
of Harry Sabine's, are they attempting to hide?

________________________________________________________________
"FIDE has made its decision. Players who refuse to be drug tested will not be
able to play chess." -- Dr. Press, co-founder of the FIDE Medical Commission.

StanB

2005-01-27, 12:28 pm

"Parrthenon" <parrthenon@cs.com> wrote in message
news:20050126211335.09365.00000274@mb-m26.news.cs.com...

quote:

> My heavens. We can't learn about the estimates because the Board
> hasn't given permission and, perhaps, won't.
>
> We can't learn about the contents of the contracts for
> Cross-to-Bear,
> and they will not tell us about the cost to move.

We? Us? Are you a member?

quote:

> What else besides the 60Gs to the local architect, possibly a
> friend
> of Harry Sabine's, are they attempting to hide?

Where do you get this 60K number anyhow? Don is being remiss in his leaks to
you. Beatriz renegotiated that to 40K and got him to include landscape
design that wasn't included in the original deal.

I guess Don is probably being kept busy trying to cover up the recent and
startling revelations about his good friend Bill G. Its not easy explaining
why Bill would consider, even for a New York minute, defrauding the New
York State Unemployment Bureau. Not to mention participating in defrauding a
mortgage company and firing a whistle blower. And the garbage that was
presented as the six month statements, shades of WorldCom and Enron.
Disgraceful.

Don should come down on the person who brought this to our attention. Kick
him off any committees he might be on. The pain, the agony. He should at
least come down just as hard as he did on the disgraceful and inflammatory
actions of Sam Sloan. What's that? He didn't say squat to Sam? I guess he
just didn't want to pile on. I mean if he did then Sam might reveal that he
gets his inside dirt, and I do mean dirt, from Don.

I would expect to find you, Larry, reporting about real muck. Take for
example, Don and Frank's motion to give the recently dismissed editor 10,000
in mustering out pay. Gee Don and Frank like to be generous with our scarce
resources.

Frankly, I think Don should RESIGN. He has spent the past year and a half
trying to RUIN Beatriz's administration. The FIRST time we've had a cash
generating administration since DON and BILL RUINED the USCF and started us
on the long road down.

Fortunately, since Don only has Frank and Randy in his pocket, he doesn't
have a majority. Beatriz will probably still eke out a positive cash flow
for us this year and do it without the building sale profit. First though
she has to undo the damage caused by that shoemaker who was bumbling around
in New Windsor.

Tom Klem

2005-01-27, 12:28 pm

Larry,

You're kidding right? "What else have they got to hide?"

When it comes to hiding the sausage, and other less trivial things, Kolonel
Klink and Sloanberg are the World Champions.

So what is the story on that loan from Dato? I am a bit curious about that
one.

--
Tom Klem

"For as this appalling ocean surrounds the verdant land, so in the soul of
man there lies one insular Tahiti, full of peace and joy, but encompassed by
all the horrors of the half known life. God keep thee! Push not off from
that isle, thou canst never return!"
---Herman Melville, Moby Dick, Ch. 58

"Parrthenon" <parrthenon@cs.com> wrote in message
news:20050126211335.09365.00000274@mb-m26.news.cs.com...

quote:

> A DOOZY
>
> <So what is the "estimated total"?> -- a bemused Louis Blair wondering

about

quote:

> the costs of moving to Crossville
>
> I am sure there must have been more bizarre forum exchanges than

the

quote:

> current one between Tim Hanke and Don Schultz, yet you have to say we have

quote:

> doozy going here. A corker.
>
> You have a member of the Board, Schultz, averring that he cannot

post

quote:

> estimates about the move to Crossville because he does not have them. You

have

quote:

> treasurer Tim Hanke saying that he does have them and that, in any event,

he is

quote:

> more interested in future savings than in the cost estimates. Further, he
> can't release the estimates without the okay of the Board, though in

another

quote:

> breath he calls for Schultz to release them because he has them, which he
> hasn't.
>
> My heavens. We can't learn about the estimates because the

Board

quote:

> hasn't given permission and, perhaps, won't.
>
> We can't learn about the contents of the contracts for

Cross-to-Bear,

quote:

> and they will not tell us about the cost to move.
>
> But nothing is being hidden. All is above board. They are

all on

quote:

> top of this move with Beatriz Marinello leading the band. Their efficiency

quote:

> mind-boggling, and the church got visited only a couple of days ago.
>
> What else besides the 60Gs to the local architect, possibly a

friend

quote:

> of Harry Sabine's, are they attempting to hide?
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> "FIDE has made its decision. Players who refuse to be drug tested will not

quote:

> able to play chess." -- Dr. Press, co-founder of the FIDE Medical

Commission.

Doom & Gloom Dave

2005-01-28, 3:46 am

Duncan Oxley wrote:

quote:

> "Tim Hanke" <timothyhanke@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:QIqdnSF1puNYQGvcRVn-3g@comcast.com...
>
> Tim:
>
> The more I see what some call "the old guard" rail against the move
> the more I become convinced this will be the best thing that happened
> the USCF in 30 years.
>

You're a smart man Duncan. I was pretty neutral about the move until I
saw the insane lengths people were going to in the attempt to stop it at any
cost. Made me realize the move must really be taking something out of the
pockets of someone to have so much anger about a simple relocation.

Parrthenon

2005-01-28, 3:46 am

< My heavens. We can't learn about the estimates because the Board hasn't
given permission and, perhaps, won't. We can't learn about the contents of the
contracts for Cross-to-Bear, and they will not tell us about the cost to move.>
-- Larry Parr

<We? Us? Are you a member?> -- Stan Booz

Stan Booz alleges that I sould desist from discussing the USCF because I'm no
longer a member. On another forum Eric Johnson (Chesspride) asked if I'm too
cheap to pay the $49.

My answer: Drug-testing, Eric.

The moment the USCF opposes definitively the snoop ethos demanded by FIDE
will be the day I renew and send an amount double in lost dues to the U.S.
Chess Trust. If I'm out for three years, then I will send $294, etc.

-- Larry Parr

________________________________________________________________
"FIDE has made its decision. Players who refuse to be drug tested will not be
able to play chess." -- Dr. Press, co-founder of the FIDE Medical Commission.

StanB

2005-01-28, 12:32 pm

"Parrthenon" <parrthenon@cs.com> wrote in message
news:20050128002102.04488.00000256@mb-m12.news.cs.com...

quote:

>< My heavens. We can't learn about the estimates because the Board hasn't
> given permission and, perhaps, won't. We can't learn about the contents of
> the
> contracts for Cross-to-Bear, and they will not tell us about the cost to
> move.>
> -- Larry Parr
>
> <We? Us? Are you a member?> -- Stan Booz
>
> Stan Booz alleges that I sould desist from discussing the USCF because
> I'm no
> longer a member.

I neither say nor allege that you can't discuss these tiresome refrains.
What I do say, as a nonmember, you are not in a position to demand
anything.

Jerzy

2005-01-28, 12:32 pm

"StanB" <stanbooz@comXXXcast.net> wrote in message
news:rZCdnVk2gajapmfcRVn-sg@comcast.com...

quote:

>
> I neither say nor allege that you can't discuss these tiresome refrains.
> What I do say, as a nonmember, you are not in a position to demand
> anything.

He can not only discuss USCF matters but also demand polite discussion (e.g.
not about someone`s arm-pits unless you are not a gentleman :-)

Regards,

Jerzy

Parrthenon

2005-01-28, 12:32 pm

WHOSE TIRESOME REFRAINS?

<I neither say nor allege that you can't discuss these tiresome refrains. What
I do say, as a nonmember, you are not in a position to demand anything.> --
Stan Booz, whose demand as a member to see the contract with ChessCafe has been
utterly ignored.

Nor does the resident CPA deny that the cost of relocation to Cross-to-Bear
might easily exceed the value of the "free" land being offered to the USCF.

In fact, this great exponent of sunshine once told us that USCF members have no
right to see the contract with Crossville. Perhaps one day Mr. Booz will get
his story straight.
________________________________________________________________
"FIDE has made its decision. Players who refuse to be drug tested will not be
able to play chess." -- Dr. Press, co-founder of the FIDE Medical Commission.

Tom Martinak

2005-01-28, 5:45 pm

>Nor does the resident CPA deny that the cost of relocation to
Cross-to-Bear might easily exceed the value of the "free" land being
offered to the USCF.

But we were moving in any case, so many of those costs will occur in
all situations. It is only the differential costs from a move to
somewhere else that needed to be considered. Just like the cost of
asbestos removal would only need to be considered for those moves to
older buildings.

- Tom Martinak

Parrthenon

2005-01-28, 10:21 pm

RESPONSE TO BOOZ AND MARTINAK

<I neither say nor allege that you can't discuss these tiresome refrains. What
I do say, as a nonmember, you are not in a position to demand anything.> --
Stan Booz

I demanded nothing, and Mr. Booz does not dispute my points.

<But we were moving in any case, so many of those costs will occur in all
situations. It is only the differential costs from a move to somewhere else
that needed to be considered. Just like the cost of asbestos removal would only
need to be considered for those moves to older buildings.> -- Tom Martinak

1. There was no pressing need to sell the building in New Windsor to begin
with, and it violated a pledge made to members during the fund raising campaign
to pay off the mortgage that it would be a PERMANENT HOME OF AMERICAN CHESS.

The money from the sale is going down the drain fast. How much will be left in
the kitty is a topic that the board dares not address.

2. The board majority voted down a two-week wait to see if the USCF could
sweeten the Liberty deal. There is no proof of asbestos in the building and
the USCF was not required to purchase it until five years down the line.

Mr. Gerry, a multibillionaire, was anxious for the site to be occupied by a
non-profit organization instead of a commercial entity. The board majority
refused to explore an offer of FIVE YEARS FREE RENT WITH AN OPTION TO BUY AFER
FIVE YEARS at a fraction of the property's value. Their rush to judgment
boggles the mind.

3. Moving 30 miles away in the same state and retaining an experienced staff
cannot be compared to the cost of relocating hundreds of miles away and hiring
people who can't tell the difference between a TN and a TD.

And so it goes.

________________________________________________________________
"FIDE has made its decision. Players who refuse to be drug tested will not be
able to play chess." -- Dr. Press, co-founder of the FIDE Medical Commission.

Tom Martinak

2005-01-28, 10:21 pm

>There is no proof of asbestos in the building and
the USCF was not required to purchase it until five years down the
line.

For a building of that age, the onus is on those who wish to buy to
prove that it doesn't contain asbestos. And if it does, the costs to
the USCF will dwarf all the other options. If there was a sure way to
kill the USCF it was to move to Liberty and then discover asbestos.

quote:

>Mr. Gerry, a multibillionaire, was anxious for the site to be occupied

by a non-profit organization instead of a commercial entity. The board
majority refused to explore an offer of FIVE YEARS FREE RENT WITH AN
OPTION TO BUY AFER FIVE YEARS at a fraction of the property's value.

There was no such offer. If there had been such an offer they might
well have explored it. What you're talking about is what those who
wished to move to Liberty hoped that they could eventually convince Mr.
Gerry to do. They made none of the many deadlines and they wanted yet
more time to try to create an offer (that they didn't make). I would
think that chess players would understand about deadlines. When the
flag falls and you haven't completed your required moves you don't get
two extra weeks.

- Tom Martinak

Mike Nolan

2005-01-28, 10:21 pm

parrthenon@cs.com (Parrthenon) writes:

quote:

>1. There was no pressing need to sell the building in New Windsor to begin
>with, and it violated a pledge made to members during the fund raising campaign
>to pay off the mortgage that it would be a PERMANENT HOME OF AMERICAN CHESS.

1 word: parking

quote:

> The money from the sale is going down the drain fast. How much will be left in
>the kitty is a topic that the board dares not address.

Um, the last I knew not a dime of the net proceeds from the sale has
been spent.

quote:

>3. Moving 30 miles away in the same state and retaining an experienced staff
>cannot be compared to the cost of relocating hundreds of miles away and hiring
>people who can't tell the difference between a TN and a TD.

According to mapquest, Liberty NY is 60.63 miles from New Windsor, not 30
miles.

quote:

> And so it goes.

Yeah, it goes on and on and on....
--
Mike Nolan

Randy Bauer

2005-01-29, 3:46 am

"Parrthenon" <parrthenon@cs.com> wrote in message
news:20050128202357.16015.00000287@mb-m15.news.cs.com...

quote:

> RESPONSE TO BOOZ AND MARTINAK
>
>
> 1. There was no pressing need to sell the building in New Windsor to begin
> with, and it violated a pledge made to members during the fund raising
> campaign
> to pay off the mortgage that it would be a PERMANENT HOME OF AMERICAN
> CHESS.

Written by a journalist who doesn't have to deal with the day-to-day budget
issues around cashflow. For all Parr's endless expounding on the good of
private enterprise and the evil of public, he really doesn't have a clue
about how both private and public enterprises budget. If he did, he would
understand that the USCF was, budget-wise, living from day to day, and its
only real asset was not liquuid. I'm sure Larry would have been quite proud
to see the USCF forced into bankruptcy, when its last illiquid asset would
have been liquidated to pay its creditors. Hey, at least the asset sale
would have been in New York, right?

quote:

>
> The money from the sale is going down the drain fast. How much will be
> left in
> the kitty is a topic that the board dares not address.

Larry Parr must have some newsflash that he should share with everybody
else -- last I heard, Larry (or was it Sam?) had "reported" that the assets
from the sale of the building were frozen by a judge. How then, can the
money be "going down the drain fast?"
(snip)

quote:

>
> 3. Moving 30 miles away in the same state and retaining an experienced
> staff
> cannot be compared to the cost of relocating hundreds of miles away and
> hiring
> people who can't tell the difference between a TN and a TD.

Which explains why Larry Parr isn't running many businesses. Moving 30
miles away in the same high tax, high cost state isn't going to lower the
administrative costs that the membership shoulders. Larry Parr seems to
suggest that we are moving to, say, Malaysia. For crying out loud, we are
moving into the middle of the country, and there is a larger share of the
nation's population within a day's drive from Crossville than from Liberty.

My guess is I could tell the average member a lot more about a TN than Larry
Parr. That wouldn't make me qualified to provide the member services we
require of our USCF staff. Our goal is to hire capable, committed, customer
focused staff, not annotators for the next issue of the Informant. I'm
confident we are doing so.

Randy Bauer

quote:

>
> And so it goes.
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> "FIDE has made its decision. Players who refuse to be drug tested will not
> be
> able to play chess." -- Dr. Press, co-founder of the FIDE Medical
> Commission.

Parrthenon

2005-01-29, 3:46 am

RESPONSE TO BAUER AND NOLAN

<n a little over 6 months, I've already spent at least $2,500 of my own money
serving on the Board. Is Larry suggesting that I have some conflict of
interest?> -- Randy Bauer

Randy Bauer creates a strawman, which he proceeds to knock down. I
never accused him of lining his own pockets or of having a conflict of
interest. In fact, I noted that he is probably an exception to the rule.

As for the $30,000 in expenses for six months or less which Beatriz
Marinello has
been allocated, we learn that she stays in a hotel and is apparently flying
back and forth from somewhere to, I assume, Cross-to-Bear. Is her hotel in
Cross-to-Bear? If not, why not?

The amount of money is not the issue, though Mr. Bauer tries mightily
to make it so. Earlier, he tossed up the same strawman concerning the $25,000
paid to Bill Goichberg. Once again, the issue is not the sums but the stinking
process involved in the decision-making.

We know now that the Executive Board passed a motion providing "no
pay" tto make Bill Goichberg interim ED even as they were discussing privately
ways to provide pay. We know that "no pay" meant "pay" all along.

Mr. Bauer wrote a blatant falsehood when talking about the Board
reconsidering its
earlier decision based on Bill's performance, which I still hold to have been
adequate to good. The truth is no such reconsideration occurred because the
Board intended from the beginning to pay him, if possible.

The point behind my posting was to state a truth: Mr. Bauer gave us
the tired old volunteer speech -- the same one vouchsafed so often before by
countless others arranging to feather their nests. I am unimpressed by such a
stump speech if only because if one takes Mr. Bauer's dismissal of $30,000 paid
by the USCF in "expenses" to Mrs. Marinello as chickenfeed or small money (I'm
a rube to bring it up) then we can certainly dismiss his yawping about $2,500.

But, of course, I at least did NOT dismiss a $30,000 expense raid as
chickenfeed; and so logically, I don't dismiss Mr. Bauer's claim about spending
$2,500 of his own money. I remain impressed to a small degree, though given his
logic, he himself who should be cocking snooks at his volunteer's speech.

MIKE NOLAN'S FOLDEROL

quote:

>1. There was no pressing need to sell the building in New Windsor to begin

with, and it violated a pledge made to members during the fund raising campaign
to pay off the mortgage that it would be a PERMANENT HOME OF AMERICAN CHESS.>
-- Larry Parr

<1 word: parking> -- Mike Nolan

Now we are told the reason for selling the building was there wasn't
enough parking for half the staff after the other half was fired! And this
justifies breaking a pledge to members who donated money to pay off the
mortgage!

quote:

>3. Moving 30 miles away in the same state and retaining an experienced staff

cannot be compared to the cost of relocating hundreds of miles away and hiring
people who can't tell the difference between a TN and a TD.> -- Larry Parr

<According to mapquest, Liberty NY is 60.63 miles from New Windsor, not 30
miles.> -- Mike Nolan

Bit deal. Does the USCF parliamentarian actually maintain that moving a
stone's throw away from New Windsor is just as expensive as moving hundreds of
miles away and training a new staff?

And so it goes, indeed.
________________________________________________________________
"FIDE has made its decision. Players who refuse to be drug tested will not be
able to play chess." -- Dr. Press, co-founder of the FIDE Medical Commission.

Mike Nolan

2005-01-29, 3:46 am

parrthenon@cs.com (Parrthenon) writes:

quote:

><According to mapquest, Liberty NY is 60.63 miles from New Windsor, not 30
>miles.> -- Mike Nolan

quote:

> Bit deal. Does the USCF parliamentarian actually maintain that moving a
>stone's throw away from New Windsor is just as expensive as moving hundreds of
>miles away and training a new staff?

Larry, if you can throw a stone 60 miles, there's a spot for you on some
country's Olympics team.

It might be a big deal to some employees, and your casual dismissal of
a rather significant difference in milage between your stated distance
and the actual distance is typical of your cavalier attitude toward facts
that don't buttress your argument.

That's an hour's drive, each way, heading up into the Catskills during
the winter months. Some employees live in that general direction
now, others don't.

Leaving aside the employee turnover issue, the big cost difference in
moving 60 miles vs moving 818 miles is the transportation cost. We don't
know what it would have taken to renovate the property in Liberty, maybe
it would have been much more than what it is costing us for the temporary
space in Crossville. Much of the furniture in New Windsor isn't worth
moving to either location. New computers would have been a good idea
for new offices anyway.
--
Mike Nolan

Parrthenon

2005-01-29, 6:45 am

<It might be a big deal to some employees, and your casual dismissal of a
rather significant difference in milage between your stated distance and the
actual distance is typical of your cavalier attitude toward facts that don't
buttress your argument.> -- Mike Nolan.

His concern for the employees who are being laid off because they may have
to drive an extra hour is touching.

And the building had to be sold because there wasn't enough parking. Yeah,
right.

I made the drive over to Liberty a few times with the family. I remembered
it as closer than it is perhaps. But it is not Mike Nolan's 818 miles away.
Our house parliamentarian picked a nit. One assumes there will be plenty of
cold weather in Crossville too, yes? Also steamy summers, though not of the
Malaysian variety.

< Much of the furniture in New Windsor isn't worth moving to either location.
New computers would have been a good idea for new offices anyway.> -- Mike
Nolan

Now, then, get this! Well, get rid of the computers and the furniture
(which was fine) because it is somehow a good idea anyway. More money out the
window. Our house parliamentarian can always be relied upon to support those
making the decisions as long as they keep him on the payroll.

The guy invents further costs as a good thing.

And so it goes.
________________________________________________________________
"FIDE has made its decision. Players who refuse to be drug tested will not be
able to play chess." -- Dr. Press, co-founder of the FIDE Medical Commission.

chessdon@aol.com

2005-01-29, 11:47 am

USCF cochair of the Finance Committee Stan Booz just posted: "Don is
being remiss=AD in his leaks to you. Beatriz renegotiated (the 60K
architects fee) down to 40K and got him to include=AD landscape design
that wasn't included in the original deal."

The 60K was totally out of line and it is to Beatriz credit that she
renogotiated it down. But IMO, it remains a bad deal for USCF - not
Betariz's fault but Niro's. Niro who put us in a poor bargaining
position and by keeping it secret takes away from the attractiveness of
Crossville's initial bid since it was not divulged that this liability
existed when Crossville was decided upon.

IIt is my understanding that all the other bids had specifically
identified all costs associated with the building.as did PBG.

Yes, Beatriz did well in negotiating it down. But getting it to include
landscape design? You mean at 60K, the landscape design was not
included? PBG and Ithe other bids included all that stuff in their bid
as far as I know.and we all thought no extra architects costs were
needed until we looked into the Niro $60K Architect deal. So we now
have costs of landscape design; where are the costs of the landscaping?
Other parts of the architects agreement that Niro signed bother me - an
additional 1 1/2% per month late charge for payments to architect; this
may be a small amount compared to the whole BUT one and one half
percent is too much. Much else is not included such as costs of
geotechnical engineers when services are requested by the architect,
structual, mech, chem and environmental tests. The architect also
receives compensation for additional services at $90 per hour.

Some additional items not covered by the contractual fees that USCF is
exposed include; civil engineer surveys, loan fees & costs, building
permits, interest on construction loan. Plus a lot more. I'm a novice
here but it seems to me Frank Niro should have sought help before he
signed the original contract and the Board should have been advised of
its existence.

I'm pround of the way Beatriz and our current Board is getting into
this, but

I'm disappointed that Niro got USCF committed and I'm disappointed
that our cochair of the Fianance Committee uses items like this
contract as a way to attack on the Internet.

I'm also very disappointed that our Board refused to ask the cochair of
Finance to cease and desist from his Internet attacks such as his
ongoing ranting about two Board members and Bill Goichberg's role as
Exec Director. If Stan wants to do this he should quit the team and do
it as a USCF member rather than publicly attacking the team when he, as
cochair Finance is a member of that team.

Stan recently stated that I drink and drink and drink Merlot and that
then I do Internet attacking. Well I don't initiate Internet attacking
and I'm not much of a drinker (I thoroughly enjoy a good wine but one
or 2 glases is virtually always my limit.

I use to admire Stan. I helped him a great deal when he sought to
become chair of the LMA committee. Now it seems I may have seriously
misjudged the man. I wish it were otherwise because there is no doubt
about it, USCF badly needs men with the experience and knowledge that
Stan has. USCF has big challenges ahead and if Stan sticks to issues
and not personalities, he will be a big help to USCF. I respectfully
ask him to do that. If he agrees, I'll shake his hand, thank him and
will buy him 3 drinks at the Amateur Team.=20

Don Schultz

Chess One

2005-01-29, 11:47 am

<chessdon@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1107003548.397762.103850@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
USCF cochair of the Finance Committee Stan Booz just posted: "Don is
being remiss in his leaks to you. Beatriz renegotiated (the 60K
architects fee) down to 40K and got him to include landscape design
that wasn't included in the original deal."

The 60K was totally out of line and it is to Beatriz credit that she
renogotiated it down. But IMO, it remains a bad deal for USCF - not
Betariz's fault but Niro's. Niro who put us in a poor bargaining
position and by keeping it secret takes away from the attractiveness of
Crossville's initial bid since it was not divulged that this liability
existed when Crossville was decided upon.

IIt is my understanding that all the other bids had specifically
identified all costs associated with the building.as did PBG.

---
Don, it is unclear from your post whose statements those are; your own, or
the person you are responding to. But - the current scandal here, and the
one that George John seems unable to unravel to his satisfaction - is where
the board's responsibility lies - and blaming yet another past-ED for the
current confusion seems particularly strange in this context.

I have understood that there were no point-to-point comparisons with other
sites [otherwise what were people being asked to do in their bids? bids not
considered for comparison because they were late?]

Of course, what any building location and design, and their associated
costs, has to do with supporting the future of chess in the USA is nowhere
addressed in any correspondence.

It is, according to sage advice offered here, a plan not worth having.

Phil Innes
---

Don Schultz

Mike Nolan

2005-01-29, 5:46 pm

parrthenon@cs.com (Parrthenon) writes:

quote:

><It might be a big deal to some employees, and your casual dismissal of a
>rather significant difference in milage between your stated distance and the
>actual distance is typical of your cavalier attitude toward facts that don't
>buttress your argument.> -- Mike Nolan.

quote:

> His concern for the employees who are being laid off because they may have
>to drive an extra hour is touching.

After years of your bad-mouthing anyone in New Windsor, to see you defending
the those same employees is a bit perplexing. Did you show the same
sympathy for the 17 employees who were laid off 16 months ago or the sales
staff?

The human dimensions of the move to Crossville are painful, I've
gotten to know a number of the staff fairly well in the last two years,
or at least as well as can be expected under the circumstances. It's
probably a measure of the state of the economy in Orange County that
we haven't had more employees quit since the plans to move were announced,
and that the level of service provided by the current/remaining employees
hasn't seriously degraded. (Opinions may vary on the extent to which
membership service has suffered in the last 16 months.)

This is not the first time I've been involved in a major employee
layoff/changeover in a business because of large-scale policy shifts
by management, and I've had to fire people I personally hired and trained.
It's never pleasant.

I think Bill surveyed the staff and found that perhaps only half of them
would have been willing to make the daily commute to Liberty. At last
report around 7 are contemplating moving to Crossville.
--
Mike Nolan

recmate@aol.com

2005-01-30, 3:44 am

Mike Nolan wrote:

quote:

> parrthenon@cs.com (Parrthenon) writes:
>
of a[vbcol=seagreen]
and the[vbcol=seagreen]
that don't[vbcol=seagreen]
>
may have[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> After years of your bad-mouthing anyone in New Windsor, to see you

defending

quote:

> the those same employees is a bit perplexing. Did you show the same
> sympathy for the 17 employees who were laid off 16 months ago or the

sales

quote:

> staff?
>
> The human dimensions of the move to Crossville are painful, I've
> gotten to know a number of the staff fairly well in the last two

years,

quote:

> or at least as well as can be expected under the circumstances. It's
> probably a measure of the state of the economy in Orange County that
> we haven't had more employees quit since the plans to move were

announced,

quote:

> and that the level of service provided by the current/remaining

employees

quote:

> hasn't seriously degraded. (Opinions may vary on the extent to which
> membership service has suffered in the last 16 months.)
>
> This is not the first time I've been involved in a major employee
> layoff/changeover in a business because of large-scale policy shifts
> by management, and I've had to fire people I personally hired and

trained.

quote:

> It's never pleasant.
>
> I think Bill surveyed the staff and found that perhaps only half of

them

quote:

> would have been willing to make the daily commute to Liberty. At

last

quote:

> report around 7 are contemplating moving to Crossville.

About two-thirds said they were willing to keep working for USCF if it
moved to Liberty. Some of those who would have commuted would probably
have eventually moved there, especially as the cost of living in
Liberty is about 20% less than in New Windsor.
Bill Goichberg

quote:

> --
> Mike Nolan

recmate@aol.com

2005-01-30, 3:44 am

Tom Martinak wrote:

quote:

> the USCF was not required to purchase it until five years down the
> line.
>
> For a building of that age, the onus is on those who wish to buy to
> prove that it doesn't contain asbestos. And if it does, the costs to
> the USCF will dwarf all the other options. If there was a sure way

quote:

> kill the USCF it was to move to Liberty and then discover asbestos.

The building was purchased by Mr. Gerry four years ago and was probably
inspected at that time, but USCF certainly should have had another
inspection before deciding to move in.

quote:

>
occupied[vbcol=seagreen]
> by a non-profit organization instead of a commercial entity. The

board

quote:

> majority refused to explore an offer of FIVE YEARS FREE RENT WITH AN
> OPTION TO BUY AFER FIVE YEARS at a fraction of the property's value.
>
> There was no such offer. If there had been such an offer they might
> well have explored it. What you're talking about is what those who
> wished to move to Liberty hoped that they could eventually convince

Mr.

quote:

> Gerry to do. They made none of the many deadlines and they wanted

yet

quote:

> more time to try to create an offer (that they didn't make). I would
> think that chess players would understand about deadlines. When the
> flag falls and you haven't completed your required moves you don't

get

quote:

> two extra weeks.

"They" was Erik Anderson, and he didn't need time to try to change Mr.
Gerry's mind, he had not yet spoken to him or seen the building and
needed two weeks for this. Considering Erik's track record I think the
chances that a favorable offer to USCF would have resulted were quite
good. Of course this was not definite but there was virtually no
downside to waiting two weeks, and a large potential upside.

Regarding the "many deadlines," the announced deadline was Sept 3, and
the Board decided at its September meeting to extend this to Oct 10,
also saying that it would make its decision by Nov 1. The Liberty bid
was submitted by Oct 10 and Erik then became interested in trying to
help this bid, asking in effect that the Board not make its Nov 1
decision early.

When your flag falls you don't get extra time, but this wasn't a game,
but an issue of great financial importance for USCF, and Erik was only
trying to help. If he and Gerry would have made a great offer, then it
was USCF that foolishly called its own flag down. Maybe there wouldn't
have been such an offer, but what did the Board have to lose by finding
out, especially when it had already suggested that a Nov 1 decision was
OK?

Bill Goichberg

quote:

>
> - Tom Martinak

recmate@aol.com

2005-01-30, 3:44 am

Randy Bauer wrote:

quote:

> "Parrthenon" <parrthenon@cs.com> wrote in message
> news:20050128202357.16015.00000287@mb-m15.news.cs.com...
to begin[vbcol=seagreen]
raising[vbcol=seagreen]
AMERICAN[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> Written by a journalist who doesn't have to deal with the day-to-day

budget

quote:

> issues around cashflow. For all Parr's endless expounding on the

good of

quote:

> private enterprise and the evil of public, he really doesn't have a

clue

quote:

> about how both private and public enterprises budget. If he did, he

would

quote:

> understand that the USCF was, budget-wise, living from day to day,

and its

quote:

> only real asset was not liquuid. I'm sure Larry would have been

quite proud

quote:

> to see the USCF forced into bankruptcy, when its last illiquid asset

would

quote:

> have been liquidated to pay its creditors. Hey, at least the asset

sale

quote:

> would have been in New York, right?
be[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> Larry Parr must have some newsflash that he should share with

everybody

quote:

> else -- last I heard, Larry (or was it Sam?) had "reported" that the

assets

quote:

> from the sale of the building were frozen by a judge. How then, can

the

quote:

> money be "going down the drain fast?"
> (snip)
experienced[vbcol=seagreen]
and[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> Which explains why Larry Parr isn't running many businesses. Moving

quote:

> miles away in the same high tax, high cost state isn't going to lower

the

quote:

> administrative costs that the membership shoulders.

This is a bit misleading as though the state is "high tax, high cost,"
Liberty is not. The cost of living in Liberty is 20% less than New
Windsor and only 2% higher than Crossville, and that includes state
taxes.

The bid submitted by Lindsborg, Kansas also seemed financially superior
to Crossville. Lindsborg offered a free building, larger than USCF
will construct in Crossville, with renovation costs of probably no more
than $100,000. The estimated cost of the Crossville building is
$500,000, and new construction often ends up costing much more than
estimated. Mikhail Korenman of Lindsborg was upset that his bid was
rejected without any explanation of in what way Crossville was better.

Bill Goichberg

Larry Parr seems to

quote:

> suggest that we are moving to, say, Malaysia. For crying out loud,

we are

quote:

> moving into the middle of the country, and there is a larger share of

the

quote:

> nation's population within a day's drive from Crossville than from

Liberty.

quote:

>
> My guess is I could tell the average member a lot more about a TN

than Larry

quote:

> Parr. That wouldn't make me qualified to provide the member services

quote:

> require of our USCF staff. Our goal is to hire capable, committed,

customer

quote:

> focused staff, not annotators for the next issue of the Informant.

I'm[vbcol=seagreen]
> confident we are doing so.
>
> Randy Bauer
>
will not[vbcol=seagreen]

StanB

2005-01-30, 5:45 pm

"Parrthenon" <parrthenon@cs.com> wrote in message
news:20050128085529.15522.00000261@mb-m02.news.cs.com...

quote:

> <I neither say nor allege that you can't discuss these tiresome refrains.
> What
> I do say, as a nonmember, you are not in a position to demand
> anything.> --
> Stan Booz, whose demand as a member to see the contract with ChessCafe has
> been
> utterly ignored.

Stan Booz says, "Can you post the contract Mike?" Parr misquotes it as a
demand. Tsk, tsk, what a hoot.

quote:

> Nor does the resident CPA deny that the cost of relocation to
> Cross-to-Bear
> might easily exceed the value of the "free" land being offered to the
> USCF.

Nor does Parr deny that it wouldn't.

quote:

> In fact, this great exponent of sunshine once told us that USCF members
> have no
> right to see the contract with Crossville. Perhaps one day Mr. Booz will
> get
> his story straight.

Perhaps one day our resident propagandist will dispense with his veneer of
intellectual dishonesty.

StanB

2005-01-30, 5:45 pm

<chessdon@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1107003548.397762.103850@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

Stan recently stated that I drink and drink and drink Merlot and that
then I do Internet attacking.

--I did not.

Well I don't initiate Internet attacking
and I'm not much of a drinker (I thoroughly enjoy a good wine but one
or 2 glases is virtually always my limit.

--That night in that Italian restaurant you sure had more than two glasses.
When you got belligerent Camaratta nudged me and said to tell you to have
another glass of wine.

I use to admire Stan. I helped him a great deal when he sought to
become chair of the LMA committee. Now it seems I may have seriously
misjudged the man. I wish it were otherwise because there is no doubt
about it, USCF badly needs men with the experience and knowledge that
Stan has. USCF has big challenges ahead and if Stan sticks to issues
and not personalities, he will be a big help to USCF. I respectfully
ask him to do that. If he agrees, I'll shake his hand, thank him and
will buy him 3 drinks at the Amateur Team.

--The issues are the personalities. In particular the ones you foist on us.
Sobriety is only 12 steps away Don.

..

chessdon@aol.com

2005-01-30, 5:45 pm

Okay then here are your exact words:

"Gee whiz Timmy, get a hold of yourself. That's what Don does=AD. Drink
some
Merlot. Drink until you become belligerent. That's what Don =ADdoes"

You just said:"That night in that Italian restaurant you sure had more
th=ADan two glasses.
When you got belligerent Camaratta nudged me and said to tel=ADl you to
have
another glass of wine.: "

Stan, one drink is too many for Camaratta, he doesn't drink.

I stand on what I said about one or two glasses of wine is usually my
limit. Ask Beatriz, she even remarked about that to me once. For some
reason Stan, you see things different than they are.

You say the issues are the personalities. Only because you, not I make
it so. Through the prism you look through you see that I divulge leaks
to Sloan and Par when I don't. When I ask for proof from you, you come
back with two hairbrained examples one of which was something about
Lawrence resigning from something. It was supposed to be at a meeting I
wasn't , what you claimed I said I didn;t nor was what you wrongly
claimed I said confidential information. Frankly I would say very
little confidenttial information is being leaked by anyone.

StanB

2005-01-30, 5:45 pm

<chessdon@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1107118727.667077.195290@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...

Stan recently stated that I drink and drink and drink Merlot and that
then I do Internet attacking.

--I did not.

Okay then here are your exact words:

"Gee whiz Timmy, get a hold of yourself. That's what Don does. Drink
some
Merlot. Drink until you become belligerent. That's what Don does"

--So, you admit you lied.

You just said:"That night in that Italian restaurant you sure had more
than two glasses.
When you got belligerent Camaratta nudged me and said to tell you to
have
another glass of wine.: "

Stan, one drink is too many for Camaratta, he doesn't drink.

--So, you admit you were belligerent from drinking too much.

Tom Martinak

2005-01-30, 5:45 pm

> "They" was Erik Anderson, and he didn't need time to try to change
Mr.

quote:

> Gerry's mind, he had not yet spoken to him or seen the building and
> needed two weeks for this.

So this was the status of the Liberty proposal at the time of the vote.
They hadn't even talked to Mr Gerry yet or seen the building. And so
many people are making claims about how good this bid was and all of
the great things being offered. Let me repeat for Mr Parr, who thought
"The board majority refused to explore an offer of FIVE YEARS FREE RENT
WITH AN OPTION TO BUY AFER FIVE YEARS at a fraction of the property's
value." Not only wasn't there such an offer, they hadn't even talked
to the owner of the property or even looked at it yet.

- Tom Martinak

Parrthenon

2005-01-30, 9:54 pm

MR. BOOZ IN HIGH FORM

<We know for sure he cost us a lucrative contract with ICC. Bill [Goichberg]
had some excuse or another but it is hard to accept excuses from the guy in
charge..> -- resident CPA Stan Booz

Mr. Booz has made a very damaging allegation. He claims Mr.
Goichberg made "some excuse or another." I'd like to hear it from Bill.

For the record, I didn't believe Mr. Booz's charge that Michelle
Anderson of AF4C was Erik Anderson's wife, and I don't believe his new charge
against Mr. Goichberg -- at least not in the version he concocts. This is not
the Bill Goichberg I've known over the years -- the guy who told me when I was
editor that I was giving, possibly, too much space to his World Open.

<Sobriety is only 12 steps away Don.> -- Stan Booz on Don Schultz

I have spent years engaged in generally hostile relations with Don Schultz
when he represented America in FIDE. Events placed us at numerous Policy Board
dinners, luncheons, president's parties and other such moments where alcohol
flowed freely. In all those years, both warlike and trucial, I never saw the
man drunk and certainly never belligerently drunk.

Now, for all I know, Don Schultz could have a liver that makes Love
Canal look like a clear mountain stream. All I can do is offer my testimony.
I've never seen the man drunk or, I believe, anywhere near it.

Another point occurs to me: that old fox and fine man Arnold Denker
used to lecture both Schultz and me about our infighting. One of Arnold's
ploys was to mention any infirmity Schultz might or, quite often, did not
have. Don went on a diet, and Arnold ever so cleverly had me believing about
15 years ago that his friend was at death's door in an attempt to get Larry
Evans and me to let up on the poor guy, who stupidly sued the 5-time U.S.
champion for $21 million.

The ploy WORKED. Arnold would tell me "Don" has this problem or that
problem and the like. He never once hinted at alcoholism or anything like it.

You have to say that Stan Booz has hit midseason high form this past 24
hours.

________________________________________________________________
"FIDE has made its decision. Players who refuse to be drug tested will not be
able to play chess." -- Dr. Press, co-founder of the FIDE Medical Commission.

StanB

2005-01-30, 9:54 pm

"Parrthenon" <parrthenon@cs.com> wrote in message
news:20050130201113.13387.00000269@mb-m27.news.cs.com...

quote:

> <We know for sure he cost us a lucrative contract with ICC. Bill
> [Goichberg]
> had some excuse or another but it is hard to accept excuses from the guy
> in
> charge..> -- resident CPA Stan Booz
>
> Mr. Booz has made a very damaging allegation. He claims Mr.
> Goichberg made "some excuse or another." I'd like to hear it from Bill.

Me too. But, don't hold your breath.

quote:

> For the record, I didn't believe Mr. Booz's charge that Michelle
> Anderson of AF4C was Erik Anderson's wife, and I don't believe his new
> charge
> against Mr. Goichberg -- at least not in the version he concocts. This is
> not
> the Bill Goichberg I've known over the years -- the guy who told me when I
> was
> editor that I was giving, possibly, too much space to his World Open.

I never charged that. I presumed that. Incorrectly of course.

quote:

> <Sobriety is only 12 steps away Don.> -- Stan Booz on Don Schultz
>
> I have spent years engaged in generally hostile relations with Don Schultz
> when he represented America in FIDE. Events placed us at numerous Policy
> Board
> dinners, luncheons, president's parties and other such moments where
> alcohol
> flowed freely. In all those years, both warlike and trucial, I never saw
> the
> man drunk and certainly never belligerently drunk.

Perhaps, now that he is older, he doesn't hold his wine as well. In any
event, it doesn't change the facts of the matter.

Nomen Nescio

2005-02-01, 3:49 am

parrthenon@cs.com (Parrthenon) wrote:

quote:

>
> <According to mapquest, Liberty NY is 60.63 miles from New Windsor, not
> 30 miles.> -- Mike Nolan
>
>Bit deal. Does the USCF parliamentarian actually maintain that moving a
>stone's throw away from New Windsor is just as expensive as moving
>hundreds of miles away and training a new staff?

Now Liarry Parr claims he can throw a stone at least 60 miles.

But then Liarry Parr is very good at throwing stones, we know.

Forget his plast "glories". We are talking today.

Today, Liarry Parr is not very good at anything. Except throwing stones.

Nowadays Liarry Parr doesn't do anything. Except throw stones.

And so it goes, indeed. Poor, poor Caroline, bit deal, indeed.

Turning again toward childish treble, pipes
And whistles in his sound. Last scene of all,
That ends this strange eventful history,
Is second childishness and mere oblivion;
Sans teeth, sans eyes, sans taste, sans every thing.

(Exeunt Liarry)

recmate@aol.com

2005-02-04, 12:41 pm

Tom Martinak wrote:

quote:

> Mr.
>
> So this was the status of the Liberty proposal at the time of the

vote.

quote:

> They hadn't even talked to Mr Gerry yet or seen the building. And so
> many people are making claims about how good this bid was and all of
> the great things being offered. Let me repeat for Mr Parr, who

thought

quote:

> "The board majority refused to explore an offer of FIVE YEARS FREE

RENT

quote:

> WITH AN OPTION TO BUY AFER FIVE YEARS at a fraction of the property's
> value." Not only wasn't there such an offer, they hadn't even talked
> to the owner of the property or even looked at it yet.

No, the Liberty proposal had been submitted in writing to the Board by
the Gerry Foundation (the owner of the property) before the Oct 10
deadline. Two Board members had visited the property- Frank Brady, who
favored Liberty, and Steve Shutt, who said that Liberty was a good bid
but preferred Crossville.

What was new was Erik Anderson's involvement. When it became clear to
me from email discussion that the majority of the Board was not
considering the Liberty bid objectively, I contacted Erik. It was only
a few days before the scheduled vote, and his willingness to help was
commendable and his request for two weeks extremely reasonable.

Erik has saved USCF at least $400,000 by holding US Championships, and
he has done a much better job than USCF used to (with prizes having
more than doubled), so you would think that as a courtesy if nothing
else, the Board would have told the best sponsor in USCF history sure,
speak to your billionaire acquaintance Alan Gerry and try to come up
with a great offer for us. Instead, they give his offer no
consideration at all, with some Board members even going so far as to
suggest that if Erik was our landlord he would "control" the
Federation, even though landlords generally don't control tenants'
business and it would have been easy to insist on a lease avoiding any
such control.

Those Board members also said that by proposing a bid that would keep
USCF near its present location (minimizing employee turnover), I was
trying to "control" USCF. This even though the call for relocation bids
posted on the USCF website specifically said that the Federation was
willing to consider bids from the Hudson Valley area!

USCF will never achieve the benefits that are possible from sponsorship
if we treat our best sponsor with such suspicion and hostility. When
the people who in fact do control USCF base important decisions on
claims that certain decisions would result in the wrong people
controlling the Federation, it suggests that their most important
objective is to maintain the control that they have.

Incidentally, at the conference call that voted for Crossville, Randy
Bauer stated that given two more weeks, Lindsorg, Kansas would probably
also improve its bid. The Lindsborg bid was already similar to
Crossville but with one major exception- instead of paying $500,000 or
more to construct our own building, they would give us a free building,
larger than what we would put up in Crossville, with some renovation
needed but likely no more than $100,000 worth. The Lindsborg people do
not think they were treated fairly and still don't understand what
advantages the Crossville bid had over their bid.

Bill Goichberg

quote:

>
> - Tom Martinak

Spam Scone

2005-02-04, 12:41 pm

recmate@aol.com wrote:

quote:

> Tom Martinak wrote:
change[vbcol=seagreen]
and[vbcol=seagreen]
> vote.
so[vbcol=seagreen]
of[vbcol=seagreen]
> thought
> RENT
property's[vbcol=seagreen]
talked[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> No, the Liberty proposal had been submitted in writing to the Board

quote:

> the Gerry Foundation (the owner of the property) before the Oct 10
> deadline. Two Board members had visited the property- Frank Brady,

who

quote:

> favored Liberty, and Steve Shutt, who said that Liberty was a good

bid

quote:

> but preferred Crossville.

quote:

>From my own conversation with Steve, I would state he was less fond of

Liberty than you claim.

quote:

> What was new was Erik Anderson's involvement. When it became clear

quote:

> me from email discussion that the majority of the Board was not
> considering the Liberty bid objectively, I contacted Erik. It was

only

quote:

> a few days before the scheduled vote, and his willingness to help was
> commendable and his request for two weeks extremely reasonable.
>
> Erik has saved USCF at least $400,000 by holding US Championships,

and

quote:

> he has done a much better job than USCF used to (with prizes having
> more than doubled), so you would think that as a courtesy if nothing
> else, the Board would have told the best sponsor in USCF history

sure,

quote:

> speak to your billionaire acquaintance Alan Gerry and try to come up
> with a great offer for us.

And, once again, violate an agreement, and reopen bidding for one of
your sweetheart deals?

Instead, they give his offer no

quote:

> consideration at all, with some Board members even going so far as to
> suggest that if Erik was our landlord he would "control" the
> Federation, even though landlords generally don't control tenants'
> business and it would have been easy to insist on a lease avoiding

any

quote:

> such control.
>
> Those Board members also said that by proposing a bid that would keep
> USCF near its present location (minimizing employee turnover), I was
> trying to "control" USCF. This even though the call for relocation

bids

quote:

> posted on the USCF website specifically said that the Federation was
> willing to consider bids from the Hudson Valley area!
>
> USCF will never achieve the benefits that are possible from

sponsorship

quote:

> if we treat our best sponsor with such suspicion and hostility.

Again, USCF already had an agreement, and a deadline.

When

quote:

> the people who in fact do control USCF base important decisions on
> claims that certain decisions would result in the wrong people
> controlling the Federation, it suggests that their most important
> objective is to maintain the control that they have.

Describes you to a T, Bill.

Chess One

2005-02-04, 12:41 pm

quote:

> Incidentally, at the conference call that voted for Crossville, Randy
> Bauer stated that given two more weeks, Lindsorg, Kansas would probably
> also improve its bid. The Lindsborg bid was already similar to
> Crossville but with one major exception- instead of paying $500,000 or
> more to construct our own building, they would give us a free building,
> larger than what we would put up in Crossville, with some renovation
> needed but likely no more than $100,000 worth. The Lindsborg people do
> not think they were treated fairly and still don't understand what
> advantages the Crossville bid had over their bid.
>
> Bill Goichberg

I understand the same thing in respect of Lindsborg - and in terms of
timeliness of their initial offer and proposal they were well ahead of the
curve - made invitations to visit and negotiate - no-one attended.

In case Lindsborg's offer was not understood, I remember contacting several
board members - but it seems that the board /did/ know the basis of the
invitation, they were aware by virtue of GM Karpov informing them directly.

Phil Innes

quote:

>

Louis Blair

2005-02-07, 5:59 pm

Spam Scone wrote:

quote:

> Again, USCF already had an agreement,
> and a deadline.

_
"More than one, in fact, because
the board minority insisted on
reopening the bidding." - Timothy
Hanke (Wed, 26 Jan 2005 10:01:13
-0500)

So, apparently, there was more than one
change of whatever deadline had existed.
Wouldn't it have taken more than "the board
minority" to do this? What votes took place
on reopening the bidding, and how did those
votes go?