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Goichberg's Relocation Report
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| Parrthenon 2004-10-20, 5:46 pm |
| Subj: Relocation Report
Date: 10/15/2004 5:54:24 PM Eastern Standard Time
From: Chessoffice
To: Beatchess, timothyhanke@comcast.net, stephenshutt@yahoo.com,
bradyfm@msn.com, Chessdon, elizabethshaughnessy@hotmail.com,
Randy.Bauer@iowa.gov, LWDubeck, sbooz@boozmajor.com, ilyag@mindspring.com,
jon@bocachess.com, mrcarr@pacbell.net, knudson1@home.com
RELOCATION REPORT
Oct 15, 2004
This report compares the Crossville and Liberty bids including anticipated
financial impact over a 15 year period. After Randy Bauer reports on Lindsborg
I will try to add that bid to the comparisons.
Purchase/build cost: Crossville $540,000, Liberty $250,000.
Lindsborg $0.
This assumes a 6000 square foor building in Crossville, which is what we
announced to potential bidders that we needed. Beatriz has recently suggested
5000 or even 4000 square feet. 5000 square feet would lower the cost to
$450,000 but I am afraid would require renting warehouse space for storage and
our library, and 4000 square feet seems totally inadequate.
Renovation cost for Liberty:
Painting the building inside and outside: $65,000.
New carpeting or tile: $70,000.
Phone system &electronics: $8000 for the first floor, which would be used for
USCF headquarters. For other floors this would be up to our tenants.
Additional fluorescent lighting: $18,000. We could hold this to $6,000 by
doing only the first floor.
Electric updates: We don't require an unusual amount of power, so probably
nothing, but let's allow $10,000.
Plumbing work to partition the heating system into separate sectors: probably
less but let's allow $10,000.
I'm not sure if any upgrade of windows is necessary to improve insulation, but
let's allow $10,000 just in case. The building seems naturally resistant to
outdoor temperatures; the heat has been shut off, but when we visited Monday it
was cold outdoors but much warmer inside.
Total $191,000.
Renovation cost for Lindsborg: We had heard $100,000 before and after seeing
Randy's report it still sounds like this may be about right.
Outdoor maintenance: The seller estimates $10,000 per year for grounds care
and snow removal in Liberty. I don't know what the cost would be to maintain
the undeveloped farmland in Crossville, maybe $3000 per year? Of course, we're
comparing apples to oranges here as Liberty has very impressive landscaped
grounds while Crossville is undeveloped land without even a tree on it.
I don't think Randy said anything about the grounds at Lindsborg. I think the
location is downtown and there may not be much land so am guessing $1000 per
year for now.
Indoor maintenance:
Part of the roof in Liberty has not been updated since 1951. It doesn't leak,
but looking ahead, we will probably need to replace it before 15 years. Our
roof at 186 Rt 9W was in much worse shape and was redone at a cost of $9700
last year. Liberty has a slightly larger roof so I think $15,000 is a
reasonable estimate. This does not need to be done quickly. A new furnace was
installed about 15 years ago and works fine, so I doubt there will be major
repair expense in that area. Including the anticipated roof repair, I suggest
allowing an average of $10,000 per year for expenses, although I am not aware
of any likely major expense other than the roof.
For a new building in Crossville there should be little indoor cost in the
early years, but over 15 years, I'm guessing an average of $1000 per year.
Lindsborg's building is almost as old as Liberty but smaller, so I'm estimating
$4000 per year.
Property taxes: We don't have a definite assessed value for Liberty yet (the
last two occupants didn't pay taxes), but based on a discussion between the
Sullivan County Partnership and a town official, it is likely the full tax
after 20 years will be about $15,000 per year, $1000 less than we paid in New
Windsor. However, we are eligible for a tax abatement program under which we
would pay 10% of full tax in years 1 and 2, 20% in years 3 and 4, etc. Over 15
years, this would mean a total of $96,000.
For Crossville, I don't know what the tax would be on land and building, but we
recently received a tax bill for $492 for 10/04 to 2/05 for our land alone.
The bill says "Property value $120,000 (which sounds closer to the truth than
the $264,000 appraised value claimed by Crossville), assessed value $30,000."
If the land tax is $492 for five months, presumably it is $1181 for twelve
months. The building would be worth a lot more than the land so if it is taxed
at the same rate (and I'm not sure it would be) we might have at least $3500
tax per year, or $52,500 over 15 years, $43,500 less than Liberty.
I'll guess Lindsborg the same as Crossville.
Moving company cost: Looks like it will cost about $5500 to move to Liberty,
not counting employee time. Crossville is a double move, to Crossville next
year and to the new building in Crossville in 2006. The first move might cost
$12,000 and the second $5000, a total of $17,000.
Lindsborg: One move, $14,000.
Employee relocation cost: Crossville $12,000 assuming four employees at $3000
each.
Lindsborg $10,000 for three employees.
Employee time for move: We discussed our recent move from 3054 Rt 9W to 3068
Rt 9W at a senior staff meeting and decided that the work required packing and
unpacking plus the subsequent disruption of adjusting to new facilities
probably added up to about a month of salary with little productivity (other
than the move) for the employees who moved. Most employees would not move to
Crossville, but unpacking would still be necessary. Most Crossville employees
would be new, so moving disruption would be less of an issue on that end as
they would be unfamiliar with their work in any event. Overall, I estimate the
cost in employee time to be $50,000 for New Windsor to Liberty, $40,000 for New
Windsor to Crossville, and $50,000 a year later for Crossville to Crossville, a
total of Liberty $50,000, Crossville $90,000.
Lindsborg $50,000.
Cost and lost efficiency of hiring/training new employees: For Liberty we will
probably retain about 60% of our employees, for Crossville about 20%. New
employees will require training, causing lack of productivity both for them and
those who train them. Our current employees are a valuable asset, those who
survived downsizing while less cost effective people were replaced. I expect a
loss of efficiency that will gradually decrease but will last for years, and
with substantial member and affiliate dissatisfaction resulting. Our CFO Ken
Thomas, who was task force coordinator and documentarian for a division of
Thomas &Betts, has warned that a move that costs us 80% of our employees is
financially risky and should not be done without careful study by
professionals. There is no way to calculate the effect, but I estimate the true
longterm impact of losing that many experienced employees at $200,000 for
Crossville. For Liberty, where three times as many current employees would be
available to train others, I estimate $40,000.
Lindsborg $220,000.
Rental income (non-chess): John Lavelle estimates $63,000 per year for
Liberty, which seems reasonable as it assumes only about 50% occupancy of two
floors on the average. That's $945,000 over 15 years. However, as some Board
members have said we shouldn't be in the property management business, and as
property managers make 5% to 10% of income, let's assume we pay 10% of this to
a manager, leaving $850,000.
Chess income: If only half our space is rented for non-chess activities on the
average, we can rent some to organizers of chess camps, tournaments, seminars,
etc. or run our own such events. $5000 per year seems a conservative estimate
of such income.
Relocation compensation: Lindsborg $72,000.
Crossville 15-year summary: Build cost $540,000, outdoor maintenance $45,000,
indoor maintenance $15,000, taxes $52,500, moving company $17,000, employee
relocation $12,000, employee time spent moving $90,000, cost &lost efficiency
of hiring/retraining $200,000, total expense $971,500. If a 5000 square foor
building is enough, total cost is $881,500.
Liberty 15-year summary: Purchase cost $250,000, renovation $191,000, outdoor
maintenance $150,000, indoor maintenance $150,000, taxes $96,000, moving
company $5500, employee time spent moving $50,000, cost &lost efficiency of
hiring/retraining $40,000, total expense $932,500. Also rental income
$850,000, chess income $75,000, total income $925,000, so overall expense is
$7500, roughly breakeven.
Lindsborg 15-year summary: Purchase cost $0, renovation $100,000, outdoor
maintenance $15,000, indoor maintenance $60,000, taxes $52,500, moving company
$14,000, employee relocation $10,000, employee time spent moving $50,000, cost
& lost efficiency of hiring/retraining $220,000, total expense $521,500. Also
relocation compensation $72,000, so overall expense $449,500.
I believe that Liberty has roughly a $900,000 edge over Crossville. If rental
income is disappointing and/or renovation costs are unexpectedly high, a few
hundred thousand of this edge could disappear, but it is at least as likely
that this estimate will be too low by several hundred thousand.
OTHER CONSIDERATIONS:
Grounds: Liberty has impressive landscaped property with trees in an upscale
neighborhood, a few blocks away from the home of Alan Gerry, one of the 40
wealthiest people in the country, who has offered to sell us the Loomis
Building. About 5 acres is the building and grassy areas and 13 acres is
wooded. Crossville has 3 acres of undeveloped farmland, no trees, in an area
adjacent to mostly empty lots, which may eventually have more businesses.
I believe Lindsborg is downtown. Don't know how the appearance compares to the
others. The shortage of windows in the building is a minus.
Travel (according to expedia.com): Liberty is 47 miles from the nearest major
airport, Crossville 71 miles. Of metro areas of 2,000,000 and up, Liberty is
106 miles from New York, 188 miles from Philadelphia, 250 miles from Boston,
285 miles from Baltimore and 324 miles from Washington, while Crossville is 240
miles from Atlanta. Crossville is, however, also 113 miles from Nashville, 234
miles from Louisville, and 313 miles from Charlotte, the latter three being
metro areas of about 1,000,000 to 1,500,000.
Lindsborg is 20 miles from Salina, but Salina Airport appears to have flights
only from Kansas City, and not many. Wichita Airport is 70 miles away, and it
is 194 miles to Kansas City, MO.
Bill Goichberg
Financing: Crossville offers a no money down mortgage. For Liberty, the Gerry
Foundation may allow gradual payment to them instead of a mortgage, I don't
have an answer on this yet. If not, an option would be to open a CD for
$62,500 and use it as collateral. Sullivan County offers low interest
renovation loans but I have yet to receive the details.
Bill Goichberg
________________________________________________________________
"FIDE has made its decision. Players who refuse to be drug tested will not be
able to play chess." -- Dr. Press, co-founder of the FIDE Medical Commission.
| |
| Parrthenon 2004-10-20, 5:46 pm |
| ONE MORE THING
Not included in the Goichberg report is the Erik Anderson AF4C intervention
which, given a few extra weeks , would likely make the Liberty proposal vastly
superior; Free rent for five years, likely elimination of any upfront money and
an option to buy after five years.
One wonders if the executive board took all this into consideration before
delaying their vote for a few weeks?
________________________________________________________________
"FIDE has made its decision. Players who refuse to be drug tested will not be
able to play chess." -- Dr. Press, co-founder of the FIDE Medical Commission.
| |
| ChessforLife 2004-10-20, 5:46 pm |
| "
ONE MORE THING
Not included in the Goichberg report is the Erik Anderson AF4C intervention
which, given a few extra weeks , would likely make the Liberty proposal vastly
superior; Free rent for five years, likely elimination of any upfront money and
an option to buy after five years.
One wonders if the executive board took all this into consideration before
delaying their vote for a few weeks?"
ONE MORE THING
Include in the Bill Goichberg's reports his idea of selling spots in the
Executive Board to the AFFC.
Some people do anything for retaining control over the organization, even
selling seats on the EB.
I can tell you two thing, I will finish my term as President and make sure that
the move takes place.
Yours for Chess,
Beatriz Marinello
USCF President
| |
| ASCACHESS 2004-10-20, 5:46 pm |
| >RELOCATION REPORT
quote:
>Oct 15, 2004
>
>This report compares the Crossville and Liberty bids including anticipated
>financial impact over a 15 year period. After Randy Bauer reports on
>Lindsborg
>I will try to add that bid to the
>comparisons.
quote:
>Purchase/build cost: Crossville $540,000, Liberty $250,000.
The Crossville construction numbers sound about right, although moving costs
seem low.
The Liberty numbers for renovation seem to have been estimated by someone on
crack. They are preposterously low on their face, but ignore the sword of
damocles hanging over this site.
Has anyone with any experience done estimates, rather than our traditional old
guard, shoot from the hip method?
One word of warning on Liberty.
Asbestos.
Does anybody on this board have a clue what asbestos removal costs?
Did it even come up?
Hasn't anybody wondered why this building still stands?
The billionaire can't afford to tear it down so he is trying to foist it off on
the dummies from the chess federation.
Tearing it down would put EPA all over this site.
One can only sit back and marvel at these guys.
I swear, they would vote by committee on brain surgery and not one of them is a
doctor.
USCF can afford zero more blunders of Schultzian scale. This one could be it.
Our cheapest alternative would be to stay in NY and rent in Newburgh.
Rp
| |
| Parrthenon 2004-10-20, 5:46 pm |
| <<I can tell you two thing, I will finish my term as President and make sure
that the move takes place.>> -- Beatriz Marinello,
USCF President
Madame President:
We are pleased that you responded, but it sheds no light on the Crossville
vote.
Many questions remain unanswered.
We would all like to hear how the move to Crossville is good for chess and why
the board refused to grant a two-week delay before making a final decision.
What are the flaws in Bill Goichberg's relocation report?
I have an open mind on this issue and would like to hear the real reasons for
the board's decision to deny a two-week delay while other offers are explored.
________________________________________________________________
"FIDE has made its decision. Players who refuse to be drug tested will not be
able to play chess." -- Dr. Press, co-founder of the FIDE Medical Commission.
| |
| Mike Nolan 2004-10-20, 5:46 pm |
| ascachess@aol.com (ASCACHESS) writes:
quote:
>One word of warning on Liberty.
>Asbestos.
quote:
>Does anybody on this board have a clue what asbestos removal costs?
>Did it even come up?
I did raise that specific issue with a member of the Board last week.
I doubt they had time to bring in an expert to evaluate the building
for asbestos possibilies between when I raised the question and when
the board voted. (There are so many different places that asbestos
could have been used that unless it is obviously present it is not a
10 minute inspection job. In Lincoln it requires a permit just
to do an inspection for it, because the mere act of looking for it can
cause air quality issues.)
(The issue came up several times with regards to current or proposed
building issues when I was on the school board in Lincoln, so I'm VERY
aware both of the problem and the potential cost for remediation. I
also know of a non-profit organization in another state that accepted
a free building (in their case an old school building) and subsequently
learned they had a $2 million asbestos clean up problem on their hands.
quote:
>Our cheapest alternative would be to stay in NY and rent in Newburgh.
It might have been before the USCF took title to the property in Crossville
last year. I'm not so sure that was the case when the board voted.
--
Mike Nolan
| |
| ASCACHESS 2004-10-20, 5:46 pm |
| >Many questions remain unanswered.
quote:
>
>We would all like to hear how the move to Crossville is good for chess and
>why
>the board refused to grant a two-week delay before making a final decision.
>
quote:
>What are the flaws in Bill Goichberg's relocation report?
Virtually all preWW2 buildings used asbestos as an insulator and these
buildings are a monetary time bomb for any non-profit dumb enough to take over
title.
This proposed gift horse, likely has typhoid.
Rp
| |
| Tim Hanke 2004-10-20, 5:46 pm |
| Generating more heat than light, parrthenon@cs.com (Larry Parr) wrote
....
quote:
>
> One wonders if the executive board took all this into consideration before
> delaying their vote for a few weeks?
One wonders if Larry Parr has read anything I have posted on this
subject. The Liberty building is a huge, 104-year-old hospital that
would need substantial renovation and likely require high ongoing
maintenance costs. I wouldn't want it FOR FREE.
Since Bill Goichberg is so enamored of this property, I urge him to
buy it himself to house his own Continental Chess Association. Then he
can develop the property along the lines he proposes.
Perhaps Larry Parr can become an investor, along with Bill Goichberg,
in this classic money pit.
Tim Hanke
USCF Vice President of Finance
| |
| Parrthenon 2004-10-20, 5:46 pm |
| <<Virtually all preWW2 buildings used asbestos as an insulator and these
buildings are a monetary time bomb for any non-profit dumb enough to take over
title. This proposed gift horse, likely has typhoid.>> -- Richard Peterson
Instead of speculation, shouldn't these issues be checked out before rejecting
a bid? What is wrong with waiting two weeks in order to see if there's a
problem. If there is, perhaps the Gerry Foundation will fix it.
I have an open mind but see no compelling reason for rushing to judgment
without having more facts about such a compelling issue that affects the
direction of American chess.
Meanwhile we still await the reasons why Beatriz Marinello is so adamant about
favoring Crossville over other sites. I'm willing to be persuaded and so are
many others on this forum.
Let's hear the case for Crossville and the case against Liberty. Let's hear
about the flaws in Goichberg's relocation report.
So far the silence is deafening.
________________________________________________________________
"FIDE has made its decision. Players who refuse to be drug tested will not be
able to play chess." -- Dr. Press, co-founder of the FIDE Medical Commission.
| |
| Chess One 2004-10-20, 5:46 pm |
|
quote:
>
> One wonders if Larry Parr has read anything I have posted on this
> subject. The Liberty building is a huge, 104-year-old hospital that
> would need substantial renovation and likely require high ongoing
> maintenance costs. I wouldn't want it FOR FREE.
Tim, you are speaking like a politician not a VP Finance.
How much to renovate the Liberty space needed? Can additional space be
sub-let? Is it a tournament space? Why buy a space which requires new
construction [which is $200 per sq foot!]
I asked 5 questions in another thread not about the specific site, but about
what USCF would do at such a site, they are all business questions - I doubt
anyone will even attempt to answer them.
Ho hum! The org is almost broke and must now expend its last possible
resource to stay alive; and gone almost broke by self-admitted amateurs
making fast decisions based on utterly inane fast-talk.
You set on going for broke too? Lemmings ain't in it.
Phil Innes
quote:
> Since Bill Goichberg is so enamored of this property, I urge him to
> buy it himself to house his own Continental Chess Association. Then he
> can develop the property along the lines he proposes.
>
> Perhaps Larry Parr can become an investor, along with Bill Goichberg,
> in this classic money pit.
>
> Tim Hanke
> USCF Vice President of Finance
| |
| Chess One 2004-10-20, 5:46 pm |
|
"Parrthenon" <parrthenon@cs.com> wrote in message
news:20041020164018.04530.00002604@mb-m02.news.cs.com...
<.>
quote:
> Meanwhile we still await the reasons why Beatriz Marinello is so adamant
> about
> favoring Crossville over other sites. I'm willing to be persuaded and so
> are
> many others on this forum.
>
> Let's hear the case for Crossville and the case against Liberty. Let's
> hear
> about the flaws in Goichberg's relocation report.
>
> So far the silence is deafening.
Exactly so, Larry. Its 90 miles an hour down a dead-end street. Its all or
nuthin! Its kill or cure!
All without any reasoned explanation to chess players in the country; chess
players whom USCF 'represents' and whose last dollars of investment it
intends to spend.
And such a rush, mind you! Nevermind a board split in two by the decision,
with a VP and the ED plus two others not at all confident, and saying so
here in public.
Its nothing other than another back-room done-deal in the dark.
Phil Innes
quote:
> ________________________________________________________________
> "FIDE has made its decision. Players who refuse to be drug tested will not
> be
> able to play chess." -- Dr. Press, co-founder of the FIDE Medical
> Commission.
| |
| Parrthenon 2004-10-20, 5:46 pm |
| <<All without any reasoned explanation to chess players in the country; chess
players whom USCF 'represents' and whose last dollars of investment it intends
to spend.
And such a rush, mind you! Nevermind a board split in two by the decision, with
a VP and the ED plus two others not at all confident, and saying so here in
public.
Its nothing other than another back-room done-deal in the dark.>> -- Phil Innes
WHY DID THE BOARD IGNORE THESE ITEMS IN RUSHING TO JUDGMENT?
Subj: Re: USCF move
Date: 10/15/2004 7:29:35 PM Eastern Daylight
From: Chessoffice
To: Beatchess, timothyhanke@comcast.net, stephenshutt@yahoo.com,
radyfm@msn.com, Chessdon, Randy.Bauer@iowa.gov,
elizabethshaughnessy@hotmail.com
CC: knudson1@home.com, LWDubeck, ilyag@mindspring.com, mrcarr@pacbell.net,
jon@bocachess.com, sbooz@boozmajor.com, Chessoffice
Dear Board and Relocation Committee:
I have been speaking to Erik Anderson of AF4C about the building in Liberty,
and he has expressed interest in helping us. As you can see from the email
below, Erik will speak to Alan Gerry about USCF obtaining five years of free
rent, followed by an option to buy. If necessary, I think Erik is willing to
buy the building and give us free rent. Erik thinks the building sounds like a
good opportunity and he may visit it within the next two weeks.
Bill Goichberg
ERIK ANDERSON'S RESPONSE WAS FORWARDED TO THE BOARD
In a message dated 10/15/2004 12:54:48 PM Eastern Standard Time,
eanderson@westrivercap.com writes:
Subj: USCF move
Date: 10/15/2004 12:54:48 PM Eastern Standard Time
From: eanderson@westrivercap.com
To: Chessoffice@aol.com
I have recently received the material from Liberty New York regarding a
possible relocation of the USCF offices to Liberty.
Obviously, a decision to move locations is a major strategic decision for the
organization and should be carefully considered.
Bill, you asked me if I would be interested in assisting the USCF in making a
move to Liberty. I am happy to pursue this opportunity on behalf of the USCF.I
intend to pursue the following course of action.
1. Mr. Gerry is known to me and my associates. I will make contact with Mr.
Gerry and see if we can structure a transaction to take advantage of the
benefits this opportunity offers and mitigate the risks associated with an
older building. In particular, I will propose that Mr. Gerry and my associates
and me see if we can take the risk of ownership. I will propose to Mr. Gerry,
that housing the USCF in Liberty is a great benefit to the community and that
we should endeavor to give the USCF free rent for at least 5 years and an
attractive option to purchase the building for the USCF.
2. I will also let Mr. Gerry know of the activities of the AF4C and will let
him know that we will work with him and other community leaders to host
exciting events in his community.
I am in the process of making contact with Mr. Gerry.
I will need approximately 2 weeks to pursue this idea for the USCF
Good luck with this important decision
Erik
________________________________________________________________
"FIDE has made its decision. Players who refuse to be drug tested will not be
able to play chess." -- Dr. Press, co-founder of the FIDE Medical Commission.
| |
| StanB 2004-10-21, 12:45 am |
|
"Parrthenon" <parrthenon@cs.com> wrote in message
news:20041020102542.29586.00002409@mb-m02.news.cs.com...
quote:
> Not included in the Goichberg report is the Erik Anderson AF4C
> intervention
> which, given a few extra weeks , would likely make the Liberty proposal
> vastly
> superior; Free rent for five years, likely elimination of any upfront
> money and
> an option to buy after five years.
Why is that likely?
| |
| Recmate 2004-10-21, 12:45 am |
| >Subject: Re: Goichberg's Relocation Report
quote:
>From: chessforlife@aol.com (ChessforLife)
>Date: 10/20/2004 11:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <20041020113023.29613.00001048@mb-m05.aol.com>
>
>"
> ONE MORE THING
>
>Not included in the Goichberg report is the Erik Anderson AF4C intervention
>which, given a few extra weeks , would likely make the Liberty proposal
>vastly
>superior; Free rent for five years, likely elimination of any upfront money
>and
>an option to buy after five years.
>
>One wonders if the executive board took all this into consideration before
>delaying their vote for a few weeks?"
>
>ONE MORE THING
>
>Include in the Bill Goichberg's reports his idea of selling spots in the
>Executive Board to the AFFC.
>Some people do anything for retaining control over the organization, even
>selling seats on the EB.
Beatriz,
The idea of allowing minority representation on the EB to wealthy business
people who would make a mandatory annual donation is not mine. The USCF Past
Presidents committee endorsed discussing such an idea with AF4C, and I think it
is a good idea. However, this idea was in no way associated with Erik
Anderson's offer to try to get us a minimum of five years free rent in Liberty.
For example, let's say that two AF4C people agreed to each donate $50,000 per
year to USCF, and in return the EB appointed them to four year Board terms.
That's $400,000 income for USCF, and two votes out of nine would hardly give
AF4C "control" over USCF.
As a bonus, the AF4C appointees, who have been fabulously successful in the
business world, would be well qualified to contribute towards the making of
wise business decisions by USCF. Since they understand business, they would be
likely to carefully consider the upside and downside of possible courses of
action.
When AF4C offered to take over the US Championship a few years ago, the
Executive Board of that time was suspicious of their motives and almost killed
the deal. The result, however, was 1) USCF has saved $100,000 per year since
then, the amount we were spending on the Championship, and 2) The Championship
has been greatly improved, with a prize fund 2.5 times the size it used to be.
With such a great track record, I would think the Board could have waited two
weeks to see what Erik Anderson of AF4C could come up with on behalf of USCF by
talking with billionaire Alan Gerry. Instead, a Board majority chose to in
effect tell Erik Anderson, "Sorry, we don't want to hear what you have to
offer."
Bill Goichberg
quote:
>I can tell you two thing, I will finish my term as President and make sure
>that
>the move takes place.
>
>Yours for Chess,
>
>Beatriz Marinello
>USCF President
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
| |
| Tim Hanke 2004-10-21, 12:45 am |
| Phil,
With all due respect, your construction cost numbers for Crossville are not
even close. You say it's $200 per square foot; actually it's closer to $90.
The rest of your analysis is no more accurate than your construction
numbers.
For example, your sweeping statement, "The org is almost broke and must now
expend its last possible resource to stay alive," is completely wrong. We
have several hundred thousand dollars cash in the bank, and won't have to
use any of it to construct our new building, because the Crossville bank is
offering us a low-interest, no-money-down loan.
Because we don't need cash to construct our new building in Crossville, we
have given the proceeds of the New Windsor building sale to USCF's LMA
Committee to manage. As a Life Member myself, and a New England cheapskate
to boot, you can bet I won't spend any more of our money than necessary. :-)
I (and others here) have provided a great deal of pertinent information
about the Crossville deal, but if you won't listen, you won't learn.
It's interesting that you won't listen to me, but you seem willing to
swallow the "Liberty tall tale" without asking any hard questions.
Tim Hanke
USCF Vice President of Finance
"Chess One" <innes8@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:XJAdd.5102$bV5.4367@trndny07...
quote:
>
>
> Tim, you are speaking like a politician not a VP Finance.
>
> How much to renovate the Liberty space needed? Can additional space be
> sub-let? Is it a tournament space? Why buy a space which requires new
> construction [which is $200 per sq foot!]
>
> I asked 5 questions in another thread not about the specific site, but
> about what USCF would do at such a site, they are all business questions -
> I doubt anyone will even attempt to answer them.
>
> Ho hum! The org is almost broke and must now expend its last possible
> resource to stay alive; and gone almost broke by self-admitted amateurs
> making fast decisions based on utterly inane fast-talk.
>
> You set on going for broke too? Lemmings ain't in it.
>
> Phil Innes
>
>
>
>
>
>
| |
| ASCACHESS 2004-10-21, 12:45 am |
|
quote:
><<Virtually all preWW2 buildings used asbestos as an insulator and these
>buildings are a monetary time bomb for any non-profit dumb enough to take
>over
>title. This proposed gift horse, likely has typhoid.>> -- Richard Peterson
quote:
>Instead of speculation, shouldn't these issues be checked out before
>rejecting
>a bid?
That asbestos was not mentioned is a sign that there is a problem.
What else do you think was used to insulate pipes and heating ducts in 100 year
old buildings? Asbestos was everywhere across the country.
No one knew there was a problem. There was no EPA.
If there was no asbestos in this hundred year old hospital, that would be
amazing.
If there had already been an asbestos cleanup, you can bet it would have been
mentioned.
Speculatively
Richard Peterson
| |
| StanB 2004-10-21, 12:45 am |
|
"Parrthenon" <parrthenon@cs.com> wrote in message
news:20041020164018.04530.00002604@mb-m02.news.cs.com...
quote:
> I have an open mind but see no compelling reason for rushing to judgment
> without having more facts about such a compelling issue that affects the
> direction of American chess.
Rush? This has been dragging on for two years now. Why couldn't those
subsqent offers have been made long before now? Why must we shuffle around
awaiting "maybe" support from AF4C, "possible" donations from the donor, EPA
tests and so forth that would surely drag on till next summer and a new
board with new ideas.
quote:
> Meanwhile we still await the reasons why Beatriz Marinello is so adamant
> about
> favoring Crossville over other sites. I'm willing to be persuaded and so
> are
> many others on this forum.
Maybe she didn't like the idea of steam radiators, septic tanks, and 90
minute commutes for the present staff.
| |
| ChessforLife 2004-10-21, 12:45 am |
| Larry,
The move to Crossville is a clear and solid deal. The USCF gets three acres of
land appraised in $264,000. Plus a fee year of rent and maintenance's costs,
which in my estimation is worth about $70,000.
In addition, a Bank in Crossville is offering to us a mortgage for the
construction of building with no money down, plus a line of credit of $300,000
(important consideration, knowing the finances of the USCF). Therefore, we
will end up paying about $40,000 per year. Currently, we paid $81,000 in rent,
only the building in which the Publications Dpt. used to be located cost us
about $48,000 per year in rent.
The USCF has a little more than $200,000 in the Bank at the moment, considering
that a year ago we were broke, its quite an accomplishment. The financial
recovery of the USCF was base in lowering the payroll without reducing
services. In addition, the B&E deal allowed us to lower our expenses and
turned this component of the operation into an immediate profit (a minimum of
$350,000 per year) The people who are now trying to take credit for the
financial recovery of the USCF did not participate in the personnel reduction
nor were endorsing the outsourcing of the B&E.
The Crossville deal is quite clear. My projection is to setup an office with
no more than 25 employees, including three consultants.
In the state of TN, there is no state income tax and the property taxes for the
land and the new building will cost us $840 per year. (In New Windsor we paid
$15,000 per year.)
Our employees will be able to obtain better deals in housing, a good house in
Crossville cost about $130,000.
The bottom line is that by moving to Crossville, the USCF will lower it
overhead considerably. This can be translated into more resources available
for our core business.
I ambition a new office with staff well train focusing in membership services.
Plus, upgrading our technology to begin our outreach and marketing efforts.
New Windsor could hardly be called the center of chess in America (I lived in
New Windsor for almost five years). However by locating the USCF Headquarters
in a more centralize location the USCF will be able to send a powerful message
"The USCF is the national umbrella for chess in America."
On a personal note: I live in Miami if I was interest in benefiting myself
personally, I would it push for proposals form Miami or Palm Beach Gardens,
instead I chose to support an alternative that is financially suitable for the
USCF. Plus I love my Cuban coffee in the morning and speaking Spanish every
day.
In terms of the Bill Goichberg's proposal from Liberty the unknown factors
could be translated into a financial disaster for the USCF. I appreciate
Bill's volunteer work for the USCF, but it's clear to me that his main
motivation is to continue having great influence in the operations of the USCF.
Bill should consider running for the Executive Board is he wants to influence
policy.
Concerning the two extra weeks, in politics we have a golden rule "it's always
easy to delay."
In this case, we had to draw the line some where.
I confident that we made the right decision for the future of the USCF. The
office will operate at a lower cost and we will have more money for our core
mission!
Tomorrow morning, I am traveling to Crossville to officially communicate the
news to the State a City official, the Governor of TN will be attending the
ceremony. Next Tuesday, I am leaving for Calvia to attend the FIDE meetings at
the upcoming Congress. In addition, I study chess three to four hours a day
because I was invited to play in the U.S. Championship, teach in the schools
every afternoon, run my small business and go to the beach every Sunday. Sam
Sloan has been mentioning my illness, I have a kidney problem that has been
stabilized. Currently, I have more energy and determination than ever that I
am doing the right things for the USCF. I will finishing my term as President,
and all of you will be able to judge my performance as President of the USCF, I
had giving the best years of the life to the USCF as a volunteer and former
employee of the office. I am grateful to our membership for the opportunity to
make a difference "chess is the love of my life".
Yours for Chess,
Beatriz Marinello
USCF President
| |
| Parrthenon 2004-10-21, 12:45 am |
| <<The idea of allowing minority representation on the EB to wealthy business
people who would make a mandatory annual donation is not mine. The USCF Past
Presidents committee endorsed discussing such an idea with AF4C, and I think
it is a good idea. However, this idea was in no way associated with Erik
Anderson's offer to try to get us a minimum of five years free rent in
Liberty.
For example, let's say that two AF4C people agreed to each donate $50,000 per
year to USCF, and in return the EB appointed them to four year Board terms.
That's $400,000 income for USCF, and two votes out of nine would hardly give
AF4C "control" over USCF.
As a bonus, the AF4C appointees, who have been fabulously successful in the
business world, would be well qualified to contribute towards the making of
wise business decisions by USCF. Since they understand business, they would be
likely to carefully consider the upside and downside of possible courses of
action.
When AF4C offered to take over the US Championship a few years ago, the
Executive Board of that time was suspicious of their motives and almost killed
the deal. The result, however, was 1) USCF has saved $100,000 per year since
then, the amount we were spending on the Championship, and 2) The Championship
has been greatly improved, with a prize fund 2.5 times the size it used to be.
With such a great track record, I would think the Board could have waited two
weeks to see what Erik Anderson of AF4C could come up with on behalf of USCF by
talking with billionaire Alan Gerry. Instead, a Board majority chose to in
effect tell Erik Anderson, "Sorry, we don't want to hear what you have to
offer.">> -- Bill Goichberg
I do know that two weeks more, a period when Erik Anderson could have dealt on
our
behalf with Mr. Gerry is merited, given the Goichberg report. Perhaps the time
has come for many voices to tell the folks in Crossville that the fait accompli
can still be undone.
Bill Goichberg appears to be correct. Eric Anderson's offer to speak
with billionaire Gerry was not conditioned, as Beatriz Marinello claims, on
receiving positions on the USCF executive board.
We now have an issue -- asbestos -- that has been raised regarding the
building in Liberty. It is, given the law as opposed to the reality of
asbestos, a real issue. It can be resolved by inspecting the building. It
should be done before reaching any decision.
Bill Goichberg's report is substantive and very detailed. In response,
Tim Hanke has mentioned that we get land in Crossville and the possibility of
putting up a building with a mortgage, which we have known.
Mr. Goichberg notes that the land valuation is actually $120,000
according to tax records, though we recognize that values may be underassessed.
The quarter million valuation, however, is also something that now requires
inspection.
I find the Goichberg report provides an overwhelming case for delaying a
couple of weeks and discovering what Erik Anderson is able to accomplish -- and
for what price.
Perhaps it's wrong to talk about a rush to judgment. What we actually have
here is a rush to movement.
WHY?
________________________________________________________________
"FIDE has made its decision. Players who refuse to be drug tested will not be
able to play chess." -- Dr. Press, co-founder of the FIDE Medical Commission.
| |
| Recmate 2004-10-21, 12:45 am |
| >Subject: Re: Goichberg's Relocation Report
quote:
>From: timothyhanke@comcast.net (Tim Hanke)
>Date: 10/20/2004 3:20 PM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <b2a11a50.0410201120.63b6a1be@posting.google.com>
>
>Generating more heat than light, parrthenon@cs.com (Larry Parr) wrote
>...
>
>One wonders if Larry Parr has read anything I have posted on this
>subject. The Liberty building is a huge, 104-year-old hospital that
>would need substantial renovation and likely require high ongoing
>maintenance costs. I wouldn't want it FOR FREE.
>
Nor did you want to hear a proposal for five or more years of free rent there,
with renovation and maintenance costs taken care of by the landlord, a proposal
made by a proven sponsor who is already saving USCF $100,000 annually.
A multimillionaire with a proven record of helping USCF has asked for two weeks
during which he would talk to a billionaire about how they might help the
Federation. The Board's response was basically, "Forget it, we're not
interested in having this discussion take place." Incredible!
Is the Federation so wealthy that we can afford to treat wealthy patrons like
this?
quote:
>Since Bill Goichberg is so enamored of this property, I urge him to
>buy it himself to house his own Continental Chess Association. Then he
>can develop the property along the lines he proposes.
>
The building was offered to USCF in order to promote Liberty by bringing in a
national organization. The local leaders in Liberty are so interested in this
that they offered to have their road signs say "Liberty, home of the US Chess
Federation."
The building has not been offered for sale on the general market and the same
terms would not be available to a small private business like Continental
Chess.
quote:
>Perhaps Larry Parr can become an investor, along with Bill Goichberg,
>in this classic money pit.
>
>Tim Hanke
>USCF Vice President of Finance
>
And if USCF gets five or more years of free rent, what exactly is the relevance
of the "money pit" comment?
Bill Goichberg
| |
| LWDubeck 2004-10-21, 12:45 am |
| As another member of the Relocation Committee (which included the Co-Chairs of
the Finance Committee and the Chair of the Life Members Assets Committee as
well as the 7 Executive board members), I shared grave reservations about the
Liberty bid similar to those already memtioned. Among my concerns were:
1. The Liberty Building had 30,000 square feet (including the basement)--USCF
needs only 5,000 to 6,000 square feet. Liberty is far too large for us.
2. The buliding was bulit over 100 years ago, and "renovated" in 1951. The
cost of medernizing it will be large and very difficult to estimate. By
comparison the cost of a building with which I am very familiar, that was built
in the early 1960's, is on the order of 10 MILLION dollars for a building
several times as large as the proposed Liberty building. Mr. Goichberg's
estimate on the costs to make the buliding usable coud be as much as $1 MILLION
dollars off-- leading to the bamkruptcy of the USCF. The excellent detailed
report by Steve Shutt only confirmed my fears that extensive, expensive repairs
would have to be done. As others have noted, asbestos very likely was used as
insulation and its rermoval costs would be huge.
The heating of the buildoing is by oil whose costs seem to be going in only one
direction-- and that is not down. It apparently is not connected to to the
town's gas supply so one can't switch to natural gas.
Upkeep on of the hiuge grounds has to me large. Who clears a 200 yard driveway
to the public road when it snows?
As for entering a rental market--that is not USCF's business. We must focus on
our core business and do that better. The core business is not real estate.
Each time we have ventured into so called "lucrative" business opportunities in
recent years, such as enlarging our books and euipment sales, the results have
brought USCF to the brink of bankruptcy.
Crossville is an option in which the financial costs can be estimated with a
much smaller range of error (dollar wise) than the Liberty bid. It is a safer
bet when you cannot affford to make another major financial miscalculation.
As to the claim that with Liberty nearly all of our employees would relocate,
the driving time from our present location is more than an hour in good
weather. In heavy snow--most employees would be sleeping in the offices or
would have to relocate anyway.
In Crossville we get free land, no down payment needed to construct the
building, free rent for one year while the building is built, a much lower cost
of living (and salaries) than in our current location, tremendous support from
the community, etc. We have been considering Crossville for two years or so and
the decision is hardly hasty. Furthermore one could argue that a prior board
had already made the decision to move to Crossville! Let's get on with the
move. Dr. Leroy Dubeck
rec/game/chess/politics
| |
| ChessforLife 2004-10-21, 12:45 am |
| Bill,
You are a smart person, think about this let's add two paying Executive Board
members (I am skeptical about the possibility of getting this money for only
seats in the board, but let's pretend that actually happens) plus moving into a
building purchased by the AFFC for five years.
What do you make out this situation?
Erik Anderson is a very respectful and successful business person. The USCF
should be always grateful to him for his contributions to chess. But the USCF
deserves to have it own building and control over the operations.
This is nothing personal, but you are going to far to secure a position of
control within the USCF. Do us a favor, run for the Executive Board get
yourself elected and then you will have a chance to contribute to the policy
making process.
The decision has been made. This is the end of it!
Beatriz Marinello
USCF President
"At a teleconference on Sunday evening Oct 17, 2004 the USCF Executive Board
voted to move to Crossville, Tennessee by March 31, 2005. Here are the relevant
two motions:
EB 05-14 (Brady and Schultz): Considering the AF4C Foundation has requested we
delay our decision for two weeks and that AF4C has demonstrated good faith in
the past by relieving USCF of the burden of our having to fund an annual US
championship thus saving us a hundred plus thousand dollars annually, that when
we failed to merge with AF4C we told them we still wanted to find ways to work
with them, and that AF4C has stated they will know in two weeks whether they
will buy the Liberty, NY building and as a result offer us free office space
for five years with an option to buy at the end of that period, considering all
this, we delay our relocation decision for two weeks. FAILED 3-4 In favor:
Bauer, Brady and Schultz; Opposed: Marinello, Hanke. Shutt and Shaughnessy"
Beatriz,
The idea of allowing minority representation on the EB to wealthy business
people who would make a mandatory annual donation is not mine. The USCF Past
Presidents committee endorsed discussing such an idea with AF4C, and I think it
is a good idea. However, this idea was in no way associated with Erik
Anderson's offer to try to get us a minimum of five years free rent in Liberty.
For example, let's say that two AF4C people agreed to each donate $50,000 per
year to USCF, and in return the EB appointed them to four year Board terms.
That's $400,000 income for USCF, and two votes out of nine would hardly give
AF4C "control" over USCF.
As a bonus, the AF4C appointees, who have been fabulously successful in the
business world, would be well qualified to contribute towards the making of
wise business decisions by USCF. Since they understand business, they would be
likely to carefully consider the upside and downside of possible courses of
action.
When AF4C offered to take over the US Championship a few years ago, the
Executive Board of that time was suspicious of their motives and almost killed
the deal. The result, however, was 1) USCF has saved $100,000 per year since
then, the amount we were spending on the Championship, and 2) The Championship
has been greatly improved, with a prize fund 2.5 times the size it used to be.
With such a great track record, I would think the Board could have waited two
weeks to see what Erik Anderson of AF4C could come up with on behalf of USCF by
talking with billionaire Alan Gerry. Instead, a Board majority chose to in
effect tell Erik Anderson, "Sorry, we don't want to hear what you have to
offer."
Bill Goichberg
| |
| ASCACHESS 2004-10-21, 12:45 am |
| >The decision has been made. This is the end of it!
quote:
>
>Beatriz Marinello
>USCF President
Goodness, you are naive.
| |
| Parrthenon 2004-10-21, 12:45 am |
| Gentlelady and Gentlemen,
Beatriz Marinello provides a reasoned response in what she wrote to me.
The current Federation president argues that the numbers for Crossville look
better than the numbers for New Windsor. She says that the deal she supports is
an improvement on the status quo, given the known numbers, which are the hard
numbers. She tells us that we had to draw a timeline somewhere to make the
decison. Hence no two weeks extra to discover or, more accurately, to try and
discover the full potential of Liberty.
Part of what Beatriz writes is unnecessarily defensive. She says a financial
turnaround was effected by cutting expenses and making money on the outsourced
B&E business. She claims that those trying to take credit for the improvement
were not the ones canning employees and drinking rye neat in New Windsor. I was
unaware that there was anything like a major counter-argument to the contrary.
No one can point to anything I've written to suggest otherwise. She, Tim Hanke
and Bill Goichberg deserve credit. Those on the Board who supported the
measures also get credit, though not so much.
The weakest portion of what Beatriz writes is the reason she adduces for why
the USCF Board could not allow Erik Anderson, a truly reputable businessman, a
couple of weeks to parlay with billionaire Gerry. The proposition that Mr.
Anderson might return with empty hands is not a sufficient response; the only
sufficient response is that such a delay would have been seriously damaging.
Which does not appear to be the case.
One tries to be objective. Even were one to question the valuation of the land
in Crossville, Beatriz shows to my satisfaction the known numbers favor
Crossville over New Windsor.
What I don't care for are the unknown numbers -- the estimates and the
possibilities. Too, there is the remote location. I can't buy the talk about
Crossville having a central location. To my mind, NYC may be on the edge of the
North American continent, but it is more central in the ways that count for
chess.
We are all of us -- or at least I am -- happy to hear that Beatriz's health has
improved or "stabilized." My advice to her and all the members of the executive
board is to figure, beginning this very day, that the move to Crossville will
be a hellish experience when losing perhaps all but three employees.
There was talk from someone in this precinct about the employees in New Windsor
being interchangeable keypunching-bozos. If you look only at educational levels
and a proper knowledge of Titus Livius and Publius Tacitus, then you can argue
such a case. But the truth is far different. When making this move to
Crossville, a hundred years of experience will be lost; and the idea that
people who often performed many jobs will be replaced without travails is
naive.
The members of this Board must be prepared for the absolute worst when losing
so much staff so quickly. The Federation is not the simple organization that
someone portrayed it as being. We will come to learn what it means to have
management employees who don't know what a chess organizer happens to be, let
alone their identities and positions in the Delegate pecking order.
Well, Beatriz is on her way to Tennessee to put the seal on what has been done.
There is a hurry here -- tomorrow, no less -- to ensure that what has been done
cannot be undone. That, I believe, is a fair reading of her message.
I still see no adequate explanation for stiff-arming Mr. Anderson. I do see a
reasoned response from madame president.
________________________________________________________________
"FIDE has made its decision. Players who refuse to be drug tested will not be
able to play chess." -- Dr. Press, co-founder of the FIDE Medical Commission.
| |
| Hal Terrie 2004-10-21, 6:45 am |
| On 21 Oct 2004 04:15:58 GMT, ascachess@aol.com (ASCACHESS) wrote:
quote:
>
>Goodness, you are naive.
I guess I'm just not politically sophisticated enough to
understand what you mean. How could it not be over? The EB has voted
and there can be no new members before August. The Delegates will not
meet until then either, by which time the USCF offices will have been
in Crossville for five months. Please explain your theory of how this
decision could be overturned.
-- Hal Terrie
| |
| Hal Terrie 2004-10-21, 6:45 am |
| On 21 Oct 2004 02:16:28 GMT, parrthenon@cs.com (Parrthenon) wrote:
quote:
> I find the Goichberg report provides an overwhelming case for delaying a
>couple of weeks and discovering what Erik Anderson is able to accomplish -- and
>for what price.
Interesting. My reaction was exactly the opposite. I found the
Goichberg report completely unconvincing, full of smoke, mirrors and
wishful thinking about both the likely renovation and maintenance
costs, and the potential revenues. My opinion, that the EB made the
right decision, remains unaltered.
-- Hal Terrie
| |
|
|
"Hal Terrie" <halNOSPAMterrie@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:kjgen0tf611l100d35hb41u2gkva8c3qgt@4ax.com...
quote:
> Interesting. My reaction was exactly the opposite. I found the
> Goichberg report completely unconvincing, full of smoke, mirrors and
> wishful thinking about both the likely renovation and maintenance
> costs, and the potential revenues. My opinion, that the EB made the
> right decision, remains unaltered.
You're just not a team player.
| |
| Recmate 2004-10-21, 9:45 am |
| >Subject: Re: Goichberg's Relocation Report
quote:
>From: chessforlife@aol.com (ChessforLife)
>Date: 10/20/2004 11:41 PM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <20041020234111.05580.00001565@mb-m27.aol.com>
>
>Bill,
>
>You are a smart person, think about this let's add two paying Executive Board
>members (I am skeptical about the possibility of getting this money for only
>seats in the board, but let's pretend that actually happens) plus moving into
>a
>building purchased by the AFFC for five years.
>
>What do you make out this situation?
>
The proposal to allow the EB to appoint a few wealthy donors as Board members
was not mine, and has nothing to do with the relocation issue.
The effect of moving into a building purchased by AF4C for five years, with a
written agreement promising free rent and renovation of the building by its
owner, would have been a financial windfall for USCF.
Crossville is providing a year of free rent in a temporary building, and you
referred to this offer as being worth $70,000 for USCF. If that is the case,
the Anderson offer should be worth at least $350,000. Is USCF so wealthy that
it can afford to throw away the chance to save $350,000?
Please note also that Erik's email did not limit his offer to five years of
free rent, he said AT LEAST five years. The offer could have been still
better. I can't believe that you wanted to reject it without finding out.
What was the downside of waiting two weeks? The worst thing that could have
happened was that the Anderson-Gerry talks were unproductive, the Board would
vote for Crossville two weeks later, and we would have avoided insulting the
best sponsor in USCF history. Not such a bad outcome.
quote:
>Erik Anderson is a very respectful and successful business person. The USCF
>should be always grateful to him for his contributions to chess. But the
>USCF
>deserves to have it own building and control over the operations.
>
With a lease providing free rent, USCF would have had sufficient control.
Exactly what are you suggesting might have happened? A few month ago you
favored a split move partially into the Excalibur building in Miami, where we
would have paid rent, and you seemed unconcerned that this would give Excalibur
too much "control." Is moving into someone else's building OK if you pay rent
but undesirable if the rent is free?
quote:
>This is nothing personal, but you are going to far to secure a position of
>control within the USCF.
Beatriz, the issue here is which relocation possibility is best for USCF. To
attempt to switch the discussion to accusing me of trying to take control of
USCF is not only outrageous, but also reflects the fact that you are unable to
make a reasonable argument for why it was better to slap Erik Anderson in the
face than to wait two weeks.
My year as volunteer ED ends Dec 31 (long before the move) and if the Board
wishes they can fire me at any time, so please don't pretend this is about
where I want USCF to be while I am ED. Rather, it is about why the Board would
support paying over $500,000 for a building and not waiting two weeks to see if
we are offered free rent at a much nicer site for at least five years.
Bill Goichberg
Do us a favor, run for the Executive Board get
quote:
>yourself elected and then you will have a chance to contribute to the policy
>making process.
>
>The decision has been made. This is the end of it!
>
>Beatriz Marinello
>USCF President
>
>"At a teleconference on Sunday evening Oct 17, 2004 the USCF Executive Board
>voted to move to Crossville, Tennessee by March 31, 2005. Here are the
>relevant
>two motions:
>
>EB 05-14 (Brady and Schultz): Considering the AF4C Foundation has requested
>we
>delay our decision for two weeks and that AF4C has demonstrated good faith in
>the past by relieving USCF of the burden of our having to fund an annual US
>championship thus saving us a hundred plus thousand dollars annually, that
>when
>we failed to merge with AF4C we told them we still wanted to find ways to
>work
>with them, and that AF4C has stated they will know in two weeks whether they
>will buy the Liberty, NY building and as a result offer us free office space
>for five years with an option to buy at the end of that period, considering
>all
>this, we delay our relocation decision for two weeks. FAILED 3-4 In favor:
>Bauer, Brady and Schultz; Opposed: Marinello, Hanke. Shutt and Shaughnessy"
>
>
>Beatriz,
>
>The idea of allowing minority representation on the EB to wealthy business
>people who would make a mandatory annual donation is not mine. The USCF Past
>Presidents committee endorsed discussing such an idea with AF4C, and I think
>it
>is a good idea. However, this idea was in no way associated with Erik
>Anderson's offer to try to get us a minimum of five years free rent in
>Liberty.
>
>For example, let's say that two AF4C people agreed to each donate $50,000 per
>year to USCF, and in return the EB appointed them to four year Board terms.
>That's $400,000 income for USCF, and two votes out of nine would hardly give
>AF4C "control" over USCF.
>
>As a bonus, the AF4C appointees, who have been fabulously successful in the
>business world, would be well qualified to contribute towards the making of
>wise business decisions by USCF. Since they understand business, they would
>be
>likely to carefully consider the upside and downside of possible courses of
>action.
>
>When AF4C offered to take over the US Championship a few years ago, the
>Executive Board of that time was suspicious of their motives and almost
>killed
>the deal. The result, however, was 1) USCF has saved $100,000 per year since
>then, the amount we were spending on the Championship, and 2) The
>Championship
>has been greatly improved, with a prize fund 2.5 times the size it used to
>be.
>
>With such a great track record, I would think the Board could have waited two
>weeks to see what Erik Anderson of AF4C could come up with on behalf of USCF
>by
>talking with billionaire Alan Gerry. Instead, a Board majority chose to in
>effect tell Erik Anderson, "Sorry, we don't want to hear what you have to
>offer."
>
>Bill Goichberg
>
>
>
>
>
>
| |
|
|
"Recmate" <recmate@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20041021090849.07480.00002522@mb-m18.aol.com...
quote:
> The effect of moving into a building purchased by AF4C for five years,
> with a
> written agreement promising free rent and renovation of the building by
> its
> owner, would have been a financial windfall for USCF.
If it would have actually been offered.
quote:
> Crossville is providing a year of free rent in a temporary building, and
> you
> referred to this offer as being worth $70,000 for USCF. If that is the
> case,
> the Anderson offer should be worth at least $350,000. Is USCF so wealthy
> that
> it can afford to throw away the chance to save $350,000?
Better a bird in the hand then two in the bush.
| |
| The Masked Bishop 2004-10-21, 5:46 pm |
| They all sound like shitholes to me. Middle-of-nowhere.
Rent some office space in New Jersey and be done with it.
quote:
> Liberty is 47 miles from the nearest major
> airport, Crossville 71 miles. Of metro areas of 2,000,000 and up, Liberty
is
quote:
> 106 miles from New York, 188 miles from Philadelphia, 250 miles from
Boston,
quote:
> 285 miles from Baltimore and 324 miles from Washington, while Crossville
is 240
quote:
> miles from Atlanta. Crossville is, however, also 113 miles from
Nashville, 234
quote:
> miles from Louisville, and 313 miles from Charlotte, the latter three
being
quote:
> metro areas of about 1,000,000 to 1,500,000.
>
> Lindsborg is 20 miles from Salina, but Salina Airport appears to have
flights
quote:
> only from Kansas City, and not many. Wichita Airport is 70 miles away,
and it
quote:
> is 194 miles to Kansas City, MO.
>
..
| |
| Sam Sloan 2004-10-21, 5:46 pm |
| On 20 Oct 2004 15:30:23 GMT, chessforlife@aol.com (ChessforLife)
wrote:
quote:
>"
> ONE MORE THING
>
>Not included in the Goichberg report is the Erik Anderson AF4C intervention
>which, given a few extra weeks , would likely make the Liberty proposal vastly
>superior; Free rent for five years, likely elimination of any upfront money and
>an option to buy after five years.
>
>One wonders if the executive board took all this into consideration before
>delaying their vote for a few weeks?"
>
>ONE MORE THING
>
>Include in the Bill Goichberg's reports his idea of selling spots in the
>Executive Board to the AFFC.
>Some people do anything for retaining control over the organization, even
>selling seats on the EB.
>I can tell you two thing, I will finish my term as President and make sure that
>the move takes place.
>
>Yours for Chess,
>
>Beatriz Marinello
>USCF President
On this point, I completely agree with Beatriz. We are not selling any
seats on our board, especially not to Erik Anderson.
Is that is part of the Liberty Deal, then I will turn against it.
Sam Sloan
| |
| Sam Sloan 2004-10-21, 5:46 pm |
| On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 21:16:02 -0400, "StanB" <stanbooz@comXXXcast.net>
wrote:
quote:
>
>"Parrthenon" <parrthenon@cs.com> wrote in message
>news:20041020164018.04530.00002604@mb-m02.news.cs.com...
>
>
>Rush? This has been dragging on for two years now. Why couldn't those
>subsqent offers have been made long before now? Why must we shuffle around
>awaiting "maybe" support from AF4C, "possible" donations from the donor, EPA
>tests and so forth that would surely drag on till next summer and a new
>board with new ideas.
As far as we knew the Crossville deal was dead. Even the town counsel
wrote a letter complaining about this.
Now, suddenly Beatriz brought the deal back in connection with her
plan to fire Goichberg and replace him with herself.
Sam Sloan
| |
| Sam Sloan 2004-10-21, 5:46 pm |
| On 21 Oct 2004 04:15:58 GMT, ascachess@aol.com (ASCACHESS) wrote:
quote:
>
>Goodness, you are naive.
Good point, Peterson.
After being opponents for many years, now we can play on the same
team.
Sam Sloan
| |
| ASCACHESS 2004-10-21, 5:46 pm |
| >As far as we knew the Crossville deal was dead. Even the town counsel
quote:
>wrote a letter complaining about this.
>
>Now, suddenly Beatriz brought the deal back in connection with her
>plan to fire Goichberg and replace him with herself.
>
>Sam Sloan
>
I hear she is going to bring back the draft and nationalize health insurance.
| |
| Sam Sloan 2004-10-21, 5:46 pm |
| On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 22:30:10 GMT, "Tim Hanke"
<timothyhanke@comcast.net> wrote:
quote:
>Because we don't need cash to construct our new building in Crossville, we
>have given the proceeds of the New Windsor building sale to USCF's LMA
>Committee to manage.
That was mighty White of you, since the LMA already owned the
building.
Sam Sloan
| |
| StanB 2004-10-22, 12:45 am |
|
"Sam Sloan" <sloan@ishipress.com> wrote in message
news:4177c5ab.12372250@ca.news.verio.net...
quote:
>
> That was mighty White of you, since the LMA already owned the
> building.
They also hold loans to Ops that haven't been repaid even though Ops is
awash in cash.
| |
| ASCACHESS 2004-10-22, 12:45 am |
| >>
quote:
>
>They also hold loans to Ops that haven't been repaid even though Ops is
>awash in cash.
From the Beverly Hillbillies,
Jed said, "We got paid in some new kind of dollars. Million dollars".
So what is the big deal if Ops owes the LMA two of those new kind of dollars.
It isn't like they are going to actually pay it back.
Rp
| |
| Angelo DePalma 2004-10-22, 12:45 am |
|
1. So the move is costing a small fortune, and they don't even include
moving expenses, lost productivity and the cost of hiring new people. Do
Bill's numbers add up to around $700,000? How much money do we have?
2. I was right, Stan.
3. I thought the building in Crossville was free.
4. Most struggling organizations don't go out and buy a building, they rent
for a while. Seems that we could get a suite or storefront somewhere in
Putnam, Dutchess, or even northern Westchester county for about $2000 a
month and let someone else pay for tile, carpeting, and all that stuff. We
don't need 6,000 square feet, not with 8 employees.
5. What on earth is "our library" and what do we need to store? Data? We
carry no inventory. Paper records? Old magazines? Rent a goddamned box
somewhere.
Crazy.
"Parrthenon" <parrthenon@cs.com> wrote in message
news:20041020101044.21100.00002327@mb-m07.news.cs.com...
quote:
> Subj: Relocation Report
> Date: 10/15/2004 5:54:24 PM Eastern Standard Time
> From: Chessoffice
> To: Beatchess, timothyhanke@comcast.net, stephenshutt@yahoo.com,
> bradyfm@msn.com, Chessdon, elizabethshaughnessy@hotmail.com,
> Randy.Bauer@iowa.gov, LWDubeck, sbooz@boozmajor.com, ilyag@mindspring.com,
> jon@bocachess.com, mrcarr@pacbell.net, knudson1@home.com
>
> RELOCATION REPORT
> Oct 15, 2004
>
> This report compares the Crossville and Liberty bids including anticipated
> financial impact over a 15 year period. After Randy Bauer reports on
> Lindsborg
> I will try to add that bid to the comparisons.
>
> Purchase/build cost: Crossville $540,000, Liberty $250,000.
>
> Lindsborg $0.
>
> This assumes a 6000 square foor building in Crossville, which is what we
> announced to potential bidders that we needed. Beatriz has recently
> suggested
> 5000 or even 4000 square feet. 5000 square feet would lower the cost to
> $450,000 but I am afraid would require renting warehouse space for storage
> and
> our library, and 4000 square feet seems totally inadequate.
>
> Renovation cost for Liberty:
>
> Painting the building inside and outside: $65,000.
>
> New carpeting or tile: $70,000.
>
> Phone system &electronics: $8000 for the first floor, which would be used
> for
> USCF headquarters. For other floors this would be up to our tenants.
>
> Additional fluorescent lighting: $18,000. We could hold this to $6,000 by
> doing only the first floor.
>
> Electric updates: We don't require an unusual amount of power, so probably
> nothing, but let's allow $10,000.
>
> Plumbing work to partition the heating system into separate sectors:
> probably
> less but let's allow $10,000.
>
> I'm not sure if any upgrade of windows is necessary to improve insulation,
> but
> let's allow $10,000 just in case. The building seems naturally resistant
> to
> outdoor temperatures; the heat has been shut off, but when we visited
> Monday it
> was cold outdoors but much warmer inside.
>
> Total $191,000.
>
> Renovation cost for Lindsborg: We had heard $100,000 before and after
> seeing
> Randy's report it still sounds like this may be about right.
>
> Outdoor maintenance: The seller estimates $10,000 per year for grounds
> care
> and snow removal in Liberty. I don't know what the cost would be to
> maintain
> the undeveloped farmland in Crossville, maybe $3000 per year? Of course,
> we're
> comparing apples to oranges here as Liberty has very impressive landscaped
> grounds while Crossville is undeveloped land without even a tree on it.
>
> I don't think Randy said anything about the grounds at Lindsborg. I think
> the
> location is downtown and there may not be much land so am guessing $1000
> per
> year for now.
>
> Indoor maintenance:
>
> Part of the roof in Liberty has not been updated since 1951. It doesn't
> leak,
> but looking ahead, we will probably need to replace it before 15 years.
> Our
> roof at 186 Rt 9W was in much worse shape and was redone at a cost of
> $9700
> last year. Liberty has a slightly larger roof so I think $15,000 is a
> reasonable estimate. This does not need to be done quickly. A new
> furnace was
> installed about 15 years ago and works fine, so I doubt there will be
> major
> repair expense in that area. Including the anticipated roof repair, I
> suggest
> allowing an average of $10,000 per year for expenses, although I am not
> aware
> of any likely major expense other than the roof.
>
> For a new building in Crossville there should be little indoor cost in the
> early years, but over 15 years, I'm guessing an average of $1000 per year.
>
> Lindsborg's building is almost as old as Liberty but smaller, so I'm
> estimating
> $4000 per year.
>
> Property taxes: We don't have a definite assessed value for Liberty yet
> (the
> last two occupants didn't pay taxes), but based on a discussion between
> the
> Sullivan County Partnership and a town official, it is likely the full tax
> after 20 years will be about $15,000 per year, $1000 less than we paid in
> New
> Windsor. However, we are eligible for a tax abatement program under which
> we
> would pay 10% of full tax in years 1 and 2, 20% in years 3 and 4, etc.
> Over 15
> years, this would mean a total of $96,000.
>
> For Crossville, I don't know what the tax would be on land and building,
> but we
> recently received a tax bill for $492 for 10/04 to 2/05 for our land
> alone.
> The bill says "Property value $120,000 (which sounds closer to the truth
> than
> the $264,000 appraised value claimed by Crossville), assessed value
> $30,000."
> If the land tax is $492 for five months, presumably it is $1181 for twelve
> months. The building would be worth a lot more than the land so if it is
> taxed
> at the same rate (and I'm not sure it would be) we might have at least
> $3500
> tax per year, or $52,500 over 15 years, $43,500 less than Liberty.
>
> I'll guess Lindsborg the same as Crossville.
>
> Moving company cost: Looks like it will cost about $5500 to move to
> Liberty,
> not counting employee time. Crossville is a double move, to Crossville
> next
> year and to the new building in Crossville in 2006. The first move might
> cost
> $12,000 and the second $5000, a total of $17,000.
>
> Lindsborg: One move, $14,000.
>
> Employee relocation cost: Crossville $12,000 assuming four employees at
> $3000
> each.
>
> Lindsborg $10,000 for three employees.
>
> Employee time for move: We discussed our recent move from 3054 Rt 9W to
> 3068
> Rt 9W at a senior staff meeting and decided that the work required packing
> and
> unpacking plus the subsequent disruption of adjusting to new facilities
> probably added up to about a month of salary with little productivity
> (other
> than the move) for the employees who moved. Most employees would not move
> to
> Crossville, but unpacking would still be necessary. Most Crossville
> employees
> would be new, so moving disruption would be less of an issue on that end
> as
> they would be unfamiliar with their work in any event. Overall, I
> estimate the
> cost in employee time to be $50,000 for New Windsor to Liberty, $40,000
> for New
> Windsor to Crossville, and $50,000 a year later for Crossville to
> Crossville, a
> total of Liberty $50,000, Crossville $90,000.
>
> Lindsborg $50,000.
>
> Cost and lost efficiency of hiring/training new employees: For Liberty we
> will
> probably retain about 60% of our employees, for Crossville about 20%. New
> employees will require training, causing lack of productivity both for
> them and
> those who train them. Our current employees are a valuable asset, those
> who
> survived downsizing while less cost effective people were replaced. I
> expect a
> loss of efficiency that will gradually decrease but will last for years,
> and
> with substantial member and affiliate dissatisfaction resulting. Our CFO
> Ken
> Thomas, who was task force coordinator and documentarian for a division of
> Thomas &Betts, has warned that a move that costs us 80% of our employees
> is
> financially risky and should not be done without careful study by
> professionals. There is no way to calculate the effect, but I estimate the
> true
> longterm impact of losing that many experienced employees at $200,000 for
> Crossville. For Liberty, where three times as many current employees
> would be
> available to train others, I estimate $40,000.
>
>
> Lindsborg $220,000.
>
> Rental income (non-chess): John Lavelle estimates $63,000 per year for
> Liberty, which seems reasonable as it assumes only about 50% occupancy of
> two
> floors on the average. That's $945,000 over 15 years. However, as some
> Board
> members have said we shouldn't be in the property management business, and
> as
> property managers make 5% to 10% of income, let's assume we pay 10% of
> this to
> a manager, leaving $850,000.
>
> Chess income: If only half our space is rented for non-chess activities
> on the
> average, we can rent some to organizers of chess camps, tournaments,
> seminars,
> etc. or run our own such events. $5000 per year seems a conservative
> estimate
> of such income.
>
> Relocation compensation: Lindsborg $72,000.
>
> Crossville 15-year summary: Build cost $540,000, outdoor maintenance
> $45,000,
> indoor maintenance $15,000, taxes $52,500, moving company $17,000,
> employee
> relocation $12,000, employee time spent moving $90,000, cost &lost
> efficiency
> of hiring/retraining $200,000, total expense $971,500. If a 5000 square
> foor
> building is enough, total cost is $881,500.
>
> Liberty 15-year summary: Purchase cost $250,000, renovation $191,000,
> outdoor
> maintenance $150,000, indoor maintenance $150,000, taxes $96,000, moving
> company $5500, employee time spent moving $50,000, cost &lost efficiency
> of
> hiring/retraining $40,000, total expense $932,500. Also rental income
> $850,000, chess income $75,000, total income $925,000, so overall expense
> is
> $7500, roughly breakeven.
>
> Lindsborg 15-year summary: Purchase cost $0, renovation $100,000, outdoor
> maintenance $15,000, indoor maintenance $60,000, taxes $52,500, moving
> company
> $14,000, employee relocation $10,000, employee time spent moving $50,000,
> cost
> & lost efficiency of hiring/retraining $220,000, total expense $521,500.
> Also
> relocation compensation $72,000, so overall expense $449,500.
>
> I believe that Liberty has roughly a $900,000 edge over Crossville. If
> rental
> income is disappointing and/or renovation costs are unexpectedly high, a
> few
> hundred thousand of this edge could disappear, but it is at least as
> likely
> that this estimate will be too low by several hundred thousand.
>
> OTHER CONSIDERATIONS:
>
> Grounds: Liberty has impressive landscaped property with trees in an
> upscale
> neighborhood, a few blocks away from the home of Alan Gerry, one of the 40
> wealthiest people in the country, who has offered to sell us the Loomis
> Building. About 5 acres is the building and grassy areas and 13 acres is
> wooded. Crossville has 3 acres of undeveloped farmland, no trees, in an
> area
> adjacent to mostly empty lots, which may eventually have more businesses.
>
> I believe Lindsborg is downtown. Don't know how the appearance compares
> to the
> others. The shortage of windows in the building is a minus.
>
> Travel (according to expedia.com): Liberty is 47 miles from the nearest
> major
> airport, Crossville 71 miles. Of metro areas of 2,000,000 and up, Liberty
> is
> 106 miles from New York, 188 miles from Philadelphia, 250 miles from
> Boston,
> 285 miles from Baltimore and 324 miles from Washington, while Crossville
> is 240
> miles from Atlanta. Crossville is, however, also 113 miles from
> Nashville, 234
> miles from Louisville, and 313 miles from Charlotte, the latter three
> being
> metro areas of about 1,000,000 to 1,500,000.
>
> Lindsborg is 20 miles from Salina, but Salina Airport appears to have
> flights
> only from Kansas City, and not many. Wichita Airport is 70 miles away,
> and it
> is 194 miles to Kansas City, MO.
>
> Bill Goichberg
>
> Financing: Crossville offers a no money down mortgage. For Liberty, the
> Gerry
> Foundation may allow gradual payment to them instead of a mortgage, I
> don't
> have an answer on this yet. If not, an option would be to open a CD for
> $62,500 and use it as collateral. Sullivan County offers low interest
> renovation loans but I have yet to receive the details.
>
> Bill Goichberg
> ________________________________________________________________
> "FIDE has made its decision. Players who refuse to be drug tested will not
> be
> able to play chess." -- Dr. Press, co-founder of the FIDE Medical
> Commission.
| |
|
|
"Angelo DePalma" <adpspammersgotohell@tellurian.net> wrote in message
news:nIudnSSmBp2zGuXcRVn-oA@garden.net...
quote:
>
> 1. So the move is costing a small fortune, and they don't even include
> moving expenses, lost productivity and the cost of hiring new people. Do
> Bill's numbers add up to around $700,000? How much money do we have?
How much does it cost to hire data input folks? More or less depending on
who runs the adding machine.
quote:
> 2. I was right, Stan.
About what/
quote:
> 3. I thought the building in Crossville was free.
I thought you said you were right?
quote:
> 4. Most struggling organizations don't go out and buy a building, they
> rent for a while. Seems that we could get a suite or storefront somewhere
> in Putnam, Dutchess, or even northern Westchester county for about $2000 a
> month and let someone else pay for tile, carpeting, and all that stuff. We
> don't need 6,000 square feet, not with 8 employees.
We have been renting for a while. We have three or four times the employees
you cite.
quote:
> 5. What on earth is "our library" and what do we need to store? Data? We
> carry no inventory. Paper records? Old magazines? Rent a goddamned box
> somewhere.
It's the morgue and it is chuck full of old periodicals concerning chess.
Over the years the best stuff has disappeared.
You ever wonder why Bill and the Old Guard asked AF4C to support that gothic
mansion notion and not Tennessee or Kansas?
| |
| Angelo DePalma 2004-10-22, 5:45 pm |
|
"StanB" <stanbooz@comXXXcast.net> wrote
quote:
> How much does it cost to hire data input folks? More or less depending on
> who runs the adding machine.
Not much. But there's a cost associated with lost time. I believe Bill
pegged it at around 1 month for execs, and my guess is it will be more for
underlings simply because wherever we move, we're not there already.
You haven't answered what you'll do about Ken Thomas and others like him,
who currently drive to the office. Bet you 30 lbs of mozzarella you won't
find a chessplaying accountant with his organizational experience and love
for USCF within 90 miles of Crossville. Ditto for Bisguier and whoever else.
Are you going to fly them all down three times a month for $1200 a pop and
put them up in hotels?
quote:
>
> About what/
Everything. This move is unwarranted at this time. It's the WRONG MOVE TO
THE WRONG PLACE AT THE WRONG TIME. Hahahahahahahaaaaaaaa.
quote:
>
>
> I thought you said you were right?
That's what I read. Hence "I thought" and not "it was".
quote:
> We have been renting for a while. We have three or four times the
> employees you cite.
I was told many of the workers telecommute. Still, my house is 2800 square
feet and could easily fit 20-30 people. EASILY. Three people per room.
C'mon.
quote:
>
> It's the morgue and it is chuck full of old periodicals concerning chess.
> Over the years the best stuff has disappeared.
Throw the shit out or auction it.
quote:
> You ever wonder why Bill and the Old Guard asked AF4C to support that
> gothic mansion notion and not Tennessee or Kansas?
Of course. It's close to Salisbury Mills. It's also close to Hackettstown
and wherever else the other day-trippers or overnighters come from. No
ulterior motive or ethics problem there.
adp
| |
| Larry Tapper 2004-10-22, 5:45 pm |
| LD> Crossville is an option in which the financial costs can be
estimated with a
much smaller range of error (dollar wise) than the Liberty bid. It is
a safer
bet when you cannot afford to make another major financial
miscalculation.
This strikes me as one of several good arguments made by Dr. Dubeck,
and I'm sorry to see that his post has been greeted with silence so
far. (Following rgcp tradition, I suppose I should say "deafening
silence".) In particular I'd like to see what Bill Goichberg has to
say in response to Dr. Dubeck, because often BG is a paragon of
point-for-point responsiveness.
I live in the mountains of western Carolina, about a three-hour drive
from Crossville. Before that I lived for many years in Boston and
spent a lot of time in NYC, so I can understand the creepy feeling
chessplaying cosmopolites may get when they contemplate a move to what
seems to them like the remote boondocks. But I can't help feeling that
they're seriously overestimating the potential horror of it, and that
this is affecting their judgment. Of the posts that I've seen on this
subject, Dr. Dubeck's strikes me as the most sensible --- sure,
Crossville could always turn out to be a mistake, but as USCF mistakes
go, this one would turn out to be relatively minor and controllable.
Larry Tapper
USCF member since 1962
lwdubeck@aol.com (LWDubeck) wrote in message news:<20041020233249.05436.00001628@mb-m20.aol.com>...
quote:
> As another member of the Relocation Committee (which included the Co-Chairs of
> the Finance Committee and the Chair of the Life Members Assets Committee as
> well as the 7 Executive board members), I shared grave reservations about the
> Liberty bid similar to those already memtioned. Among my concerns were:
>
> 1. The Liberty Building had 30,000 square feet (including the basement)--USCF
> needs only 5,000 to 6,000 square feet. Liberty is far too large for us.
>
> 2. The buliding was bulit over 100 years ago, and "renovated" in 1951. The
> cost of medernizing it will be large and very difficult to estimate. By
> comparison the cost of a building with which I am very familiar, that was built
> in the early 1960's, is on the order of 10 MILLION dollars for a building
> several times as large as the proposed Liberty building. Mr. Goichberg's
> estimate on the costs to make the buliding usable coud be as much as $1 MILLION
> dollars off-- leading to the bamkruptcy of the USCF. The excellent detailed
> report by Steve Shutt only confirmed my fears that extensive, expensive repairs
> would have to be done. As others have noted, asbestos very likely was used as
> insulation and its rermoval costs would be huge.
>
> The heating of the buildoing is by oil whose costs seem to be going in only one
> direction-- and that is not down. It apparently is not connected to to the
> town's gas supply so one can't switch to natural gas.
>
> Upkeep on of the hiuge grounds has to me large. Who clears a 200 yard driveway
> to the public road when it snows?
>
> As for entering a rental market--that is not USCF's business. We must focus on
> our core business and do that better. The core business is not real estate.
> Each time we have ventured into so called "lucrative" business opportunities in
> recent years, such as enlarging our books and euipment sales, the results have
> brought USCF to the brink of bankruptcy.
>
> Crossville is an option in which the financial costs can be estimated with a
> much smaller range of error (dollar wise) than the Liberty bid. It is a safer
> bet when you cannot affford to make another major financial miscalculation.
>
> As to the claim that with Liberty nearly all of our employees would relocate,
> the driving time from our present location is more than an hour in good
> weather. In heavy snow--most employees would be sleeping in the offices or
> would have to relocate anyway.
>
> In Crossville we get free land, no down payment needed to construct the
> building, free rent for one year while the building is built, a much lower cost
> of living (and salaries) than in our current location, tremendous support from
> the community, etc. We have been considering Crossville for two years or so and
> the decision is hardly hasty. Furthermore one could argue that a prior board
> had already made the decision to move to Crossville! Let's get on with the
> move. Dr. Leroy Dubeck
> rec/game/chess/politics
| |
| Kenneth Sloan 2004-10-22, 5:45 pm |
| larry_tapper@yahoo.com (Larry Tapper) writes:
quote:
> LD> Crossville is an option in which the financial costs can be
> estimated with a
> much smaller range of error (dollar wise) than the Liberty bid. It is
> a safer
> bet when you cannot afford to make another major financial
> miscalculation.
>
> This strikes me as one of several good arguments made by Dr. Dubeck,
> and I'm sorry to see that his post has been greeted with silence so
> far.
Intelligent posts are often greeted by silence. Silly posts always
generate immediate responses.
--
Kenneth Sloan sloan@uab.edu
Computer and Information Sciences (205) 934-2213
University of Alabama at Birmingham FAX (205) 934-5473
Birmingham, AL 35294-1170 http://www.cis.uab.edu/sloan/
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| Sam Sloan 2004-10-22, 5:45 pm |
| On 22 Oct 2004 12:34:47 -0700, larry_tapper@yahoo.com (Larry Tapper)
wrote:
[vbcol=seagreen]
>LD> Crossville is an option in which the financial costs can be
>estimated with a
>much smaller range of error (dollar wise) than the Liberty bid. It is
>a safer
>bet when you cannot afford to make another major financial
>miscalculation.
>
>This strikes me as one of several good arguments made by Dr. Dubeck,
>and I'm sorry to see that his post has been greeted with silence so
>far. (Following rgcp tradition, I suppose I should say "deafening
>silence".) In particular I'd like to see what Bill Goichberg has to
>say in response to Dr. Dubeck, because often BG is a paragon of
>point-for-point responsiveness.
>
>I live in the mountains of western Carolina, about a three-hour drive
>from Crossville. Before that I lived for many years in Boston and
>spent a lot of time in NYC, so I can understand the creepy feeling
>chessplaying cosmopolites may get when they contemplate a move to what
>seems to them like the remote boondocks. But I can't help feeling that
>they're seriously overestimating the potential horror of it, and that
>this is affecting their judgment. Of the posts that I've seen on this
>subject, Dr. Dubeck's strikes me as the most sensible --- sure,
>Crossville could always turn out to be a mistake, but as USCF mistakes
>go, this one would turn out to be relatively minor and controllable.
>
>Larry Tapper
>USCF member since 1962
>
>
>
>lwdubeck@aol.com (LWDubeck) wrote in message news:<20041020233249.05436.00001628@mb-m20.aol.com>...
However, I think Dubeck greatly underestimates the financial risks
involved in moving to Crossville. For one, they will be building a
building at a minimum cost of $360,000 but the actual cost will
probably be more than $500,000.
A few years from now, when they want to sell it, who will buy it? They
might get no more than $50,000 for it, and take a 90% loss.
It took them over a year to sell the building in New Windsor which had
more than 15,000 square feet in it, or four times the size of the
projected Crossville building.
Sam Sloan
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| Parrthenon 2004-10-22, 5:45 pm |
| <<Virtually all preWW2 buildings used asbestos as an insulator and these
buildings are a monetary time bomb for any non-profit dumb enough to take over
title. This proposed gift horse, likely has typhoid.>> -- Richard Peterson
Instead of speculation, shouldn't these issues be checked out before rejecting
a bid? What is wrong with waiting two weeks in order to see if there's a
problem. If there is, perhaps the Gerry Foundation will fix it.
I have an open mind but see no compelling reason for rushing to judgment
without having more facts about such a compelling issue that affects the
direction of American chess.
Meanwhile we still await the reasons why Beatriz Marinello is so adamant about
favoring Crossville over other sites. I'm willing to be persuaded and so are
many others on this forum.
Let's hear the case for Crossville and the case against Liberty. Let's hear
about the flaws in Goichberg's relocation report.
So far the silence is deafening.
________________________________________________________________
"FIDE has made its decision. Players who refuse to be drug tested will not be
able to play chess." -- Dr. Press, co-founder of the FIDE Medical Commission.
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| GrantPerks 2004-10-23, 12:45 am |
| Sam Sloan opins:
quote:
>A few years from now, when they want to sell it, who will buy it? They
>might get no more than $50,000 for it, and take a 90% loss.
>
Why will "they" want to sell it in a few years?
Grant Perks
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| ASCACHESS 2004-10-23, 12:45 am |
| >Sam Sloan opins:
quote:
>
>Why will "they" want to sell it in a few years?
>
>Grant Perks
>
Why would they want to sell it in a few years for $50K?
Sheesh
Richard Peterson
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| Sam Sloan 2004-10-23, 12:46 am |
| On 22 Oct 2004 21:59:17 GMT, gperks2@aol.comnojunk (GrantPerks) wrote:
quote:
>Sam Sloan opins:
>
>Why will "they" want to sell it in a few years?
>
>Grant Perks
The new proposed building will have 4,000 square feet. I believe that
the building they just sold in New Windsor for $513,000 had 15,000
square feet on each of two floors. This is just an estimate. I would
like for you to supply the exact figure since you probably know.
The temporary building they are in now is about 6000 square feet I
think. Kindly provide the correct number.
To pay $360,000 to build a 4,000 square foot building is an amazingly,
unbelieveably bad deal. I can build a building right here in New York
City for a lot cheaper that. Don't believe me? Come here to Far
Rockaway Queens and I will show you new buildings much bigger and
cheaper than that. There are a new dozen buildings under construction
I can see now right outside my window. Most of the construction
workers here are from Bangladesh.
The Crossville deal is such a bad deal that the only real conclusion
is that it is a crime meriting actual jail time.
Also, remember that the Crossville deal was not an arms length
transaction. It is Harold Sabine's deal. Sabine is a former USCF
Policy Board member and a former candidate for USCF President who was
able to use his political influence to push this extermely bad deal
through.
Funny that they accuse me of being the "old guard" when I have never
been even remotely a USCF insider, whereas Harold Sabine is the actual
old guard.
Sam Sloan
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| GrantPerks 2004-10-23, 12:46 am |
| Sam Sloan answered:
quote:
>The new proposed building will have 4,000 square feet. I believe that
>the building they just sold in New Windsor for $513,000 had 15,000
>square feet on each of two floors. This is just an estimate. I would
>like for you to supply the exact figure since you probably know.
Why should I answer your question when you didn't answer mine? But, as I
recall, the building in New Windsor was 9,000sqft on each floor.
quote:
>
>The temporary building they are in now is about 6000 square feet I
>think. Kindly provide the correct number.
I don't think I ever knew the answer, but 6000 sqft sounds about right.
quote:
>To pay $360,000 to build a 4,000 square foot building is an amazingly,
>unbelieveably bad deal.<snipped the rambling about cheap imigrant labor>
Sounds about right for around here. Residential is about $100 sqft in Ohio, I
assume commercial should be less.
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