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Home > Archive > Chess politics > October 2005 > GM Nakamura's comments on USCF
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GM Nakamura's comments on USCF
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| RSHaas@aol.com 2005-10-29, 11:33 pm |
| I think Nakamura has a bright future if they start making Charlie
Chan movies once again.
Old Haasie
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| Taylor Kingston 2005-10-29, 11:33 pm |
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RSHaas@aol.com wrote:
quote:
> I think Nakamura has a bright future if they start making Charlie
> Chan movies once again.
That would be a first -- Charlie Chan being played by an actual
Oriental. Neither of the actors most identified with the role was the
least bit Chinese. Sidney Toler was born in Missouri and was of
Scottish blood, while Warner Oland was Swedish. Something rather
strange about that.
Maybe Nakamura could land a role as one of Chan's sons. That helped
launch the career of Keye Luke, who years later got a second wind on
the "Kung Fu" TV series. Probably better earning prospects there than
in chess.
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| Mike Murray 2005-10-29, 11:33 pm |
| On 29 Oct 2005 18:22:00 -0700, "Taylor Kingston"
<tkingston@chittenden.com> wrote:
quote:
>RSHaas@aol.com wrote:
[vbcol=seagreen]
> That would be a first -- Charlie Chan being played by an actual
>Oriental.
A small point of political correctness: AFAIK, calling someone of
Asian ancestry an "Oriental" is like referring to someone's "Scotch
Grandmother". "Oriental" is used for products, like rugs, just as
"Scotch" refers to whiskey. "Asian" and "Scot" or "Scottish" is used
for people.
This seems to be a relatively recent preference; my guess is it comes
from academia. I worked with quite a few people of Chinese and
Japanese ancestry and many of them said it made no difference. But
"Asian" seems safer.
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| parrthenon@cs.com 2005-10-30, 7:33 pm |
| ASIAN VS. ORIENTAL
<I worked with quite a few people of Chinese and
Japanese ancestry and many of them said it made no
difference. But "Asian" seems safer.> -- Mike Murray
The issue really becomes: where do the wogs
begin? They begin, sir, at Calais. The authority
here is no less than Lord Curzon, India's greatest
viceroy, at least in terms of literary output.
Getting rid of Oriental loses a lot. A guy over
here who just lost his Malay girlfriend (she ran off
with another mat salleh) was referred to as
disorientalled for a period.
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| Mike Murray 2005-10-30, 7:33 pm |
| On 30 Oct 2005 05:51:35 -0800, "parrthenon@cs.com" <parrthenon@cs.com>
wrote:
quote:
>ASIAN VS. ORIENTAL
quote:
><I worked with quite a few people of Chinese and
>Japanese ancestry and many of them said it made no
>difference. But "Asian" seems safer.> -- Mike Murray
quote:
> The issue really becomes: where do the wogs
>begin? They begin, sir, at Calais. The authority
>here is no less than Lord Curzon, India's greatest
>viceroy, at least in terms of literary output.
quote:
> Getting rid of Oriental loses a lot. A guy over
>here who just lost his Malay girlfriend (she ran off
>with another mat salleh) was referred to as
>disorientalled for a period.
In the late 60's, my desk was in one of those great bullpens for which
the Lazy-B was known. Right in front of me sat a programmer of
Chinese ancestry, not long in the States. One day, he had flash of
insight, spun around in his chair and said, "To me, you are all
foreigners", then went back to work.
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| Taylor Kingston 2005-10-30, 7:33 pm |
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Mike Murray wrote:
quote:
> A small point of political correctness: AFAIK, calling someone of
> Asian ancestry an "Oriental" is like referring to someone's "Scotch
> Grandmother". "Oriental" is used for products, like rugs, just as
> "Scotch" refers to whiskey. "Asian" and "Scot" or "Scottish" is used
> for people.
I was aware of the Scotch/Scottish distinction, but applying it to
"Oriental" is a new one on me.
quote:
> This seems to be a relatively recent preference; my guess is it comes
> from academia. I worked with quite a few people of Chinese and
> Japanese ancestry and many of them said it made no difference. But
> "Asian" seems safer.
The only point I was trying to make was that Nakamura was much closer
to the right ethnic background for playing the Chinese detective, while
the two actors best known for Chan were of North European descent. As
for "Asian" replacing "Oriental," I'm not sure it works in this
context. Asians include Turks, Arabs, Indians and many other groups
considered, as far as I know, biologically more closely related to
Western peoples than to those of the Far East.
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| Jeremy Spinrad 2005-10-30, 7:33 pm |
| You are correct that this comes from academia. The idea is that Oriental, meaning
Eastern, is too "Eurocentric"; the correct term is now East Asian. I even heard a
student complaining about her professor's insensitivity because the professor had
used the term Oriental. However, there should be no notion that the term Oriental
is in any sense derogatory, even if you believe that the renaming to East Asian
is important. It is simply a term which some feel should be replaced. Similarly,
"colored" and "negro" are now not generally used, but remain in the name
of some national organizations since there are no particularly negative
associations with them.
Jerry Spinrad
In article <1130692588.465252.89680@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "Taylor Kingston" <tkingston@chittenden.com> writes:
|>
|> Mike Murray wrote:
|> > A small point of political correctness: AFAIK, calling someone of
|> > Asian ancestry an "Oriental" is like referring to someone's "Scotch
|> > Grandmother". "Oriental" is used for products, like rugs, just as
|> > "Scotch" refers to whiskey. "Asian" and "Scot" or "Scottish" is used
|> > for people.
|>
|> I was aware of the Scotch/Scottish distinction, but applying it to
|> "Oriental" is a new one on me.
|>
|> > This seems to be a relatively recent preference; my guess is it comes
|> > from academia. I worked with quite a few people of Chinese and
|> > Japanese ancestry and many of them said it made no difference. But
|> > "Asian" seems safer.
|>
|> The only point I was trying to make was that Nakamura was much closer
|> to the right ethnic background for playing the Chinese detective, while
|> the two actors best known for Chan were of North European descent. As
|> for "Asian" replacing "Oriental," I'm not sure it works in this
|> context. Asians include Turks, Arabs, Indians and many other groups
|> considered, as far as I know, biologically more closely related to
|> Western peoples than to those of the Far East.
|>
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| Mike Murray 2005-10-30, 7:33 pm |
| On 30 Oct 2005 09:16:28 -0800, "Taylor Kingston"
<tkingston@chittenden.com> wrote:
quote:
> The only point I was trying to make was that Nakamura was much closer
>to the right ethnic background for playing the Chinese detective, while
>the two actors best known for Chan were of North European descent.
Agreed. I wasn't implying an ethnic slur on your part.
quote:
> As
>for "Asian" replacing "Oriental," I'm not sure it works in this
>context. Asians include Turks, Arabs, Indians and many other groups
>considered, as far as I know, biologically more closely related to
>Western peoples than to those of the Far East.
Well, PC and preferences can't always be stretched into rational
self-consistency.
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| Jeremy Spinrad 2005-10-30, 7:33 pm |
| In article <rc3am11n8r9lek6tmdf603v99e1gc8ghst@4ax.com>, Mike Murray <mikemurray@despammed.com> writes:
|> On 30 Oct 2005 09:16:28 -0800, "Taylor Kingston"
|> <tkingston@chittenden.com> wrote:
|>
|> > The only point I was trying to make was that Nakamura was much closer
|> >to the right ethnic background for playing the Chinese detective, while
|> >the two actors best known for Chan were of North European descent.
|>
|> Agreed. I wasn't implying an ethnic slur on your part.
|>
|> > As
|> >for "Asian" replacing "Oriental," I'm not sure it works in this
|> >context. Asians include Turks, Arabs, Indians and many other groups
|> >considered, as far as I know, biologically more closely related to
|> >Western peoples than to those of the Far East.
Actually, the new terms are East Asiam (includes Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, and
some others), South Asians (includes Indians, Pakistanits, Sri Lankans, and some
others), and other subcategories. Although I am not a huge fan of the new
terminology, it is no worse than the old terminology.
Jerry Spinrad
|>
|> Well, PC and preferences can't always be stretched into rational
|> self-consistency.
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| Taylor Kingston 2005-10-30, 7:33 pm |
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Mike Murray wrote:
quote:
> Agreed. I wasn't implying an ethnic slur on your part.
I never thought you did. No problem.
Well, since we have managed to turn this thread completely away from
its original intent, I feel obliged to put it back on course by asking:
Is Nakamura right about USCF vs. A4CF?
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| Leopold 2005-10-31, 5:32 am |
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"Taylor Kingston" <tkingston@chittenden.com> wrote in message
news:1130692588.465252.89680@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
quote:
>
> Mike Murray wrote:
>
> I was aware of the Scotch/Scottish distinction, but applying it to
> "Oriental" is a new one on me.
>
"If it ain't Scottish, It's Shit!"
-SNL
quote:
>
> The only point I was trying to make was that Nakamura was much closer
> to the right ethnic background for playing the Chinese detective, while
> the two actors best known for Chan were of North European descent. As
> for "Asian" replacing "Oriental," I'm not sure it works in this
> context. Asians include Turks, Arabs, Indians and many other groups
> considered, as far as I know, biologically more closely related to
> Western peoples than to those of the Far East.
>
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| parrthenon@cs.com 2005-10-31, 7:38 pm |
| <Is Nakamura right about USCF vs. A4CF?> -- Taylor Kingston
GM Larry Evans tole me that he intends to address this very question in
his weekly column next Monday October 31 at worldchessnetwork.com
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| Chess One 2005-10-31, 7:38 pm |
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"Leopold" <chessguy@qwest.net> wrote in message
news:ssl9f.39$dM1.4841@news.uswest.net...
quote:
>
> "Taylor Kingston" <tkingston@chittenden.com> wrote in message
> news:1130692588.465252.89680@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
If we use the term Oriental for 'them' we should use the term Occidental for
'us', especially since world maps always seem to show us in the west and
them in the east, and a nominal center point be Geenwich or something. That
makes for some sort of historical reason to be 'east or west'. If maps
showed China on the left, then the Pacific, then the Americas in the middle
and winding up with Europe, Europeans would be in the east and the new
Orientals.
I also understand that Asian is a preferred term by Asians themselves, and
this is maybe a different idea to the map one which addresses a region
contrasted with other regions, since Asian is a means to name their own
region.
[vbcol=seagreen]
> "If it ain't Scottish, It's Shit!"
The only people on the Isalnd to use the term British are the English. The
Scots prefer 'Scots', the Welsh, Welsh. The Irish say Irish, and not Eire.
We will all be hearing a lot more about Asians, and indeed about BRICs - the
economic world forecast is for 4 new super powers to emerge within the next
30 to 50 years eclipsing all others: Brazil, Russia, India, China.
Karpov once told me that there were an active 20 million players of western
chess in China - and we have what, 70,000 active from a pool of 4 million
chess-capable people in the USA.
Phil Innes
quote:
> -SNL
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