Chess politics - Book sales, Schiller, and USCF

Author

Book sales, Schiller, and USCF

Taylor Kingston

2005-10-06, 11:31 pm

The recent discussion about ChessCafe, the USCF, Eric Schiller etc.
has shown a surfeit of disinformation and biased or uninformed opinion,
and a serious paucity of facts. While I have given up arguing with
rgcp's resident mud-slingers, I post here a few things here in hopes
of providing some relevant information:

1. The claim that ChessCafe carries nothing by authors Keene, Evans
and Schiller, or the publisher Cardoza, is false. Several books by
Evans, and at least two by Keene ("Aron Nimzowitsch: A Reappraisal"
and "A Complete Defence for Black") are now or have recently been
on the catalog. Several books by Schiller that came with USCF's B&E
inventory were carried. Schiller's CD "The Ultimate Tarrasch" was
reviewed favorably by Carsten Hansen at ChessCafe in February 2002, and
was carried until it went out of print. Books by Cardoza are on the
catalog, and just last week, "202 Checkmates for Children" by Alberston
and Wilson, published by Cardoza, was highly praised by Steve Goldberg
in the weekly featured ChessCafe review.

2. Concerning the claim that books by Schiller are good sellers, no
one here seems to have presented any actual sales figures. The fact
that Schiller books appear in many mainstream bookstores (Borders,
Barnes & Noble, etc.) does not necessarily indicate good sales.
Mainstream bookstores rarely order specific titles in such
special-interest subjects. They usually lack the expertise to stock a
chess section, or any section requiring specialized knowledge (e.g.
science, history, psychology, computers etc.) They generally work with
several large distributors. The distributor meets with a buyer and
suggests that he can provide a selection of books on a topic. So, one
or more Schiller books would be included with perhaps another dozen or
so chess titles provided by that distributor.
However, these big bookstores have the ability to return books if
they do not sell. That means their being offered on the shelf may be
more *_a function of the distributor putting together assortments of
chess books_* than of any particular book being a good seller, let
alone being requested by a store.
Cardoza books are distributed by the big firm Simon & Schuster. This
explains why they appear in many bookstores. The big question is: how
many actually sell? If 100 books are sent to bookstores and 98 are
eventually returned to the distributor, the author is paid for only
two. So the mere fact that a book appears on the shelves of a B&N or
Borders is not proof of good sales.
Without some valid sales data, the claims of Schiller partisans must
be viewed skeptically.

3. None of the Schiller apologists have mentioned it, but he owes the
USCF approximately $20,000 for the U.S. Open fiasco he ran in Hawaii
about seven years ago. He badmouths the USCF, in print and on his
website. The generally dismal quality of his work aside, should the
USCF support and promote such an individual?

I leave it to rgcp/rgcm readers to make up their own minds on the
above points. I have lost all interest in mud-wrestling with our
resident liars, distortionists, sleaze-mongers and loonies, not to
mention their pseudonymous sycophants, and so will be arguing little or
no further on this matter.

Chess One

2005-10-06, 11:31 pm

"Taylor Kingston" <tkingston@chittenden.com> wrote in message
news:1128644046.426042.121030@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

quote:

>
> The recent discussion about ChessCafe, the USCF, Eric Schiller etc.
> has shown a surfeit of disinformation and biased or uninformed opinion,
> and a serious paucity of facts. While I have given up arguing with
> rgcp's resident mud-slingers, I post here a few things here in hopes
> of providing some relevant information:
>
> 1. The claim that ChessCafe carries nothing by authors Keene, Evans
> and Schiller, or the publisher Cardoza, is false. Several books by
> Evans, and at least two by Keene ("Aron Nimzowitsch: A Reappraisal"
> and "A Complete Defence for Black") are now or have recently been
> on the catalog. Several books by Schiller that came with USCF's B&E
> inventory were carried. Schiller's CD "The Ultimate Tarrasch" was
> reviewed favorably by Carsten Hansen at ChessCafe in February 2002, and
> was carried until it went out of print. Books by Cardoza are on the
> catalog, and just last week, "202 Checkmates for Children" by Alberston
> and Wilson, published by Cardoza, was highly praised by Steve Goldberg
> in the weekly featured ChessCafe review.

FACT: Chessville books by Schiller = 20, USCF/Chesscafe books by Schiller =
ZERO
FACT: Chessville books by Keene = 9, USCF/Chesscafe books by Keene = 1

quote:

> 2. Concerning the claim that books by Schiller are good sellers, no
> one here seems to have presented any actual sales figures. The fact
> that Schiller books appear in many mainstream bookstores (Borders,
> Barnes & Noble, etc.) does not necessarily indicate good sales.

Laugh - are we to assume that B&N and Borders are naive about their stock?

quote:

> Mainstream bookstores rarely order specific titles in such
> special-interest subjects. They usually lack the expertise to stock a
> chess section, or any section requiring specialized knowledge (e.g.
> science, history, psychology, computers etc.) They generally work with
> several large distributors. The distributor meets with a buyer and
> suggests that he can provide a selection of books on a topic. So, one
> or more Schiller books would be included with perhaps another dozen or
> so chess titles provided by that distributor.
> However, these big bookstores have the ability to return books if
> they do not sell. That means their being offered on the shelf may be
> more *_a function of the distributor putting together assortments of
> chess books_* than of any particular book being a good seller, let
> alone being requested by a store.

This would be a sufficent /experiemtn/ but if these two mass retailers
continue to represent the titles /at all/ can this mean that there is merit
[profit] in doing so? I think so.

quote:

> Cardoza books are distributed by the big firm Simon & Schuster. This
> explains why they appear in many bookstores. The big question is: how
> many actually sell? If 100 books are sent to bookstores and 98 are
> eventually returned to the distributor, the author is paid for only
> two. So the mere fact that a book appears on the shelves of a B&N or
> Borders is not proof of good sales.
> Without some valid sales data, the claims of Schiller partisans must
> be viewed skeptically.

Without some elbow-grease from book-banners, suggestions that major
retailers don't know their books from their elbows might also be viewed
sceptically.

quote:

> 3. None of the Schiller apologists have mentioned it, but he owes the
> USCF approximately $20,000 for the U.S. Open fiasco he ran in Hawaii
> about seven years ago.

Can this be the real reason why his books are banned? I would have thought
that any adequate contract would have been enforced by normal means - but
apparently not! A mere $20 grand is not worth collecting!

quote:

> He badmouths the USCF,

USCF policies - did he ever suggest the organisation itself should be
trashed?

quote:

> in print and on his
> website. The generally dismal quality of his work aside, should the
> USCF support and promote such an individual?

What makes USCF so able to distinguish dismal from the publishers and the
public's confidence in continuing to publish and purchase the books?

quote:

> I leave it to rgcp/rgcm readers to make up their own minds on the
> above points. I have lost all interest in mud-wrestling with our
> resident liars, distortionists, sleaze-mongers and loonies, not to
> mention their pseudonymous sycophants, and so will be arguing little or
> no further on this matter.

What nonsense - if you had lost interest you wouldn't continue to back up
chesscafe's policy and effectively ban 2 popular authors, Schiller and
Keene.

The facts of actual representation by chesscafe compared with chessville are
given above, the rest are words unrelated to business decisions, but
seemingly about a political decision by chess politicians to not represent 2
popular writers because they do not brown-nose to the politicos, disagree
over policy details or major aspects, and speak their minds [right or
wrong], like this was still a country in which you could do that.

Phil Innes
Business Manager,
Chessville.

Mike Murray

2005-10-06, 11:31 pm

On 6 Oct 2005 17:14:06 -0700, "Taylor Kingston"
<tkingston@chittenden.com> wrote:

quote:

> 2. Concerning the claim that books by Schiller are good sellers, no
>one here seems to have presented any actual sales figures.

Barnes and Noble provides sales ranking for new books they sell. For
some of the Schiller books:

Standard Chess Openings: 147,194
Gambit Chess Openings 122,936
Learn From Bobby Fischer's Greatest Games: 192,450

Other Schiller titles that I checked (I quit after about 12) ranged
from about 360,000 to 614,000.

Some books that Louis Blair mentioned in a related thread:

Basic Chess Endings (Fine) 191,984
Pandolfini's Endgame Course: 103,781
Excelling at Technical Chess: 362,624
Fundamental Chess Endings 534,697
Survival Guide to Rook Endings 520,818
Chess Endgame Training 555,099

(other books mentioned by Blair were out of stock and had no sales
ranking associated with them, although they were available from
affiliated used book sellers.)

I checked a couple extra:

My Great Predecessors (Kasparov on Fischer): 25,788 -- A veritable
best-seller!
Winning Chess Brilliancies (by Seirawan): 193,458

So, it appears that sales of Schiller's books are in the quantitative
neighborhood of many titles stocked by Chess Cafe. Unfortunately,
chess books don't seem much of a threat to, say, Ann Rice.

It would be legitimate to ask how closely sales at B&N might map to
potential sales at Chess Cafe, and I have no idea how to answer this.

quote:

> 3. None of the Schiller apologists have mentioned it, but he owes the
>USCF approximately $20,000 for the U.S. Open fiasco he ran in Hawaii
>about seven years ago. He badmouths the USCF, in print and on his
>website. The generally dismal quality of his work aside, should the
>USCF support and promote such an individual?

Don't sell books by one who owes you money? A lot of well-known
authors would have been rejected by that criterion. What has the USCF
done to collect?

Support and promote? Selling books is primarily a service to the
*members*, isn't it? Surely we wouldn't stock books merely as a favor
to the author?

quote:

> I leave it to rgcp/rgcm readers to make up their own minds on the
>above points. I have lost all interest in mud-wrestling with our
>resident liars, distortionists, sleaze-mongers and loonies, not to
>mention their pseudonymous sycophants,

Hmmm. So what's my category, Tayor, and what's the career path? I'm
making some T-shirts.

Taylor Kingston

2005-10-06, 11:31 pm

Mike Murray wrote:

quote:

> Hmmm. So what's my category, Tayor, and what's the career path? I'm
> making some T-shirts.

That is entirely up to you.

parker.rose@hotmail.com

2005-10-06, 11:31 pm

Chess One wrote:

quote:

> <snip, snip>
> FACT: Chessville books by Schiller = 20, USCF/Chesscafe books by Schiller =
> ZERO
> FACT: Chessville books by Keene = 9, USCF/Chesscafe books by Keene = 1
> <snip, snip>
>
> Phil Innes
> Business Manager,
> Chessville.

I did a little poking around the Chessville site. Mr. Innes, who has
identified himself as the business manager of Chessville, apparently
fails to tell us that Chessville really has no stock at all. It seems
they do not actually carry anything. The Chessville "shop" is run by
"Chess4Less," Malcolm Pein's West Palm Beach, Florida corporation
(along with "Classical Games") that has very quietly become the "online
store" for a few chess web sites (e.g., the ICC, at chessclub.com).
This is the same Malcolm Pein who did such a horrendous job for the
immediate year or two before the USCF B&E had to be outsourced, because
of the bad job by... Malcolm Pein.

While I was there, I did a little price comparing. Amazon.com may be a
threat to book dealers everywhere, chess and non-chess alike. But
Pein's pricing seems to be to give ZERO off the suggested retail price.
Nada. Rien. (This no-discount pricing is the same at every site he
runs, including his London Chess Centre) With one notable exception...

As for Pein's view of Schiller's books, anyone who gets his magazine
CHESS out of London cannot but help to have noted that Schiller's books
have been figured prominently over the past 6, 8 or 12 months - as
giveaways and heavily discounted offerings. So I guess he does discount
some books. <g>

ChessCafe's pricing cannot match Amazon's (so whose does?). But the
pricing is not only virtually uniformly lower than the Chessville/Pein
prices, but it also pays 13.5% (?) to the USCF.

My point is that I think it is a little unfair to proclaim what an
equal-opportunity bookstore you are when you are really not a bookstore
at all.

Parker Rose

Equinorm@AOL.com

2005-10-06, 11:31 pm

At the risk of repeating my opinion one (or more?) too many times,
quality is a legitimate issue and one which would justify the USCF,
Chess Cafe, or any other seller who cares about their customers not
carrying Mr. Schiller's books.

I don't have any strong opinions on chess politics or any significant
knowledge of Mr. Schiller's role in the same, and I have nothing
against Mr. Schiller personally; I know him only through his chess
books. But I do think there is a perfectly good reason for the USCF or
Chess Cafe not to carry the vast majority of his books: namely, that
most of them are of poor quality.

So I wonder at Mr. Innes' conclusion that all critics of Mr. Schiller's
books are motivated by political or personal animus. I must take issue
with this statement. It is a practice too frequently employed in our
uncivil times: to cast aspersions on the motives of those who disagree
with us, as if not sharing our opinions is evidence of malice or some
nefarious purpose. It is a taint now infecting virtually all political
struggles in our country, and I fear the taint is spreading to other
realms of discourse. IMO, the recognition that reasonable men and women
may disagree with one's own strongly held opinions is one sign of
emotional maturity.

- Geof Strayer

Matt Nemmers

2005-10-06, 11:31 pm

<parker.rose@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1128652268.433543.189920@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

quote:

>
> As for Pein's view of Schiller's books, anyone who gets his magazine
> CHESS out of London cannot but help to have noted that Schiller's books
> have been figured prominently over the past 6, 8 or 12 months - as
> giveaways and heavily discounted offerings. So I guess he does discount
> some books. <g>

LOL! So I guess it's not so much a discount as a marketing ploy. They need
to offer a few worthless trinkets a la Chuck E. Cheese's to make their
subscriptions a little more attractive.

Maybe ol' Schiller should start writing his books under the pen-name
"Charles E. Chess."

Ba-dump-bum....

Matt Nemmers

2005-10-06, 11:31 pm

<Equinorm@AOL.com> wrote in message
news:1128652976.940044.155410@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

quote:

> At the risk of repeating my opinion one (or more?) too many times,
> quality is a legitimate issue and one which would justify the USCF,
> Chess Cafe, or any other seller who cares about their customers not
> carrying Mr. Schiller's books.
>
> I don't have any strong opinions on chess politics or any significant
> knowledge of Mr. Schiller's role in the same, and I have nothing
> against Mr. Schiller personally; I know him only through his chess
> books. But I do think there is a perfectly good reason for the USCF or
> Chess Cafe not to carry the vast majority of his books: namely, that
> most of them are of poor quality.
>
> So I wonder at Mr. Innes' conclusion that all critics of Mr. Schiller's
> books are motivated by political or personal animus. I must take issue
> with this statement. It is a practice too frequently employed in our
> uncivil times: to cast aspersions on the motives of those who disagree
> with us, as if not sharing our opinions is evidence of malice or some
> nefarious purpose. It is a taint now infecting virtually all political
> struggles in our country, and I fear the taint is spreading to other
> realms of discourse.

LOL. He said 'taint.' Reminds me of a joke....

quote:

> emotional maturity.

What's that?

Mike Murray

2005-10-06, 11:31 pm

On Fri, 07 Oct 2005 02:48:07 GMT, "Matt Nemmers"
<mattnemmers@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

quote:

>Maybe ol' Schiller should start writing his books under the pen-name
>"Charles E. Chess."

Or "Chester Nements". Oh.... that's been taken.

Mike Murray

2005-10-06, 11:31 pm

On 6 Oct 2005 18:58:06 -0700, "Taylor Kingston"
<tkingston@chittenden.com> wrote:

quote:

>Mike Murray wrote:
[vbcol=seagreen]
> That is entirely up to you.

Shucks. Lacking guidance, I guess I'll have to stick with "Inveterate
Troll".

knudsen@correspondencechess.com

2005-10-07, 2:31 am

"Laugh - are we to assume that B&N and Borders are naive about their
stock?"

Hi Phil:

Things have changed a lot in the last 10 years or so. In fact B&N,
Borders, as well as
Amazon, of course, do not maintain large stocks of books for their
operations, which
are nearly always non-brick and mortar ones.

There is no "quality" qualification, whatsoever, for distribution of
books through the electronic
outlets. For POD titles, as an example, the major distributors
typically order 3-5 books at a time. If
they sell, they reorder. They will keep reordering as long as they
sell, and as long
as the book is available from the publisher.

I don't know about brick and mortar operations, as my experience is
with PODs, and electronic
outlets. I have heard, from author friends from mainstream publishing
houses, that for the
electronic side of the game - the procedure is similar - they order 3
to 5 books at a time,
and if they sell, they keep reordering them.

There probably most definitely "is" qualification for book store
placement, due to shortage of
shelf space, etc. But this is not where most of the sales are made.
Most of the sales are
made through the various online outlets, particularly Amazon.

For a "no-name" author, chances are the book will not even appear
physically in book stores -
Accomplishing this is usually limited to large publishing firms who
have standing arrangements
with the book chains.

I guess the ultimate litmus test would be for someone to walk around to
the various brick
and mortar stores, to see what is actually on the shelves. I wouldn't
be able to help with that,
because I am currently living in Germany, but I would be most curious
of the results of such
a survey...

Kind Regards,
John

parrthenon@cs.com

2005-10-07, 2:31 am

THE BOYCOTT WAS (IS) REAL

<I have lost all interest in mud-wrestling with our
resident liars, distortionists, sleaze-mongers and
loonies, not to mention their pseudonymous sycophants
and so will be arguing little or no further on this matter.> --
Taylor Kingston

We note that Mr. Rynd-Dowd has subsided for a
bit, though NM Taylor Kingston has been gingerly
dipping his precious pink toes into the boiling rgcp
soup after telling us how he preferred the cool, blue
waters elsewhere. We call it dip-and-run.

NM Taylor Kingston, the 1800-rated but
self-proclaimed 2300+ ELO basso profundo, once
again slouches toward rgcp. This time around, it is a
dit and run slouch, though.

NM Kingston is no longer able to deal with this
writer, just as he is unable to handle Sam Sloan over
the board. My e-odor is too pronounced from a
distance of 12,000 miles, and Sam's body odor is too
pronounced in an enclosed room or, perhaps, in the
great out of doors, too.

NM Kingston is saying that several years ago a
work by Eric Schiller was carried and that recently,
after a lot of fracas, another work is being sold.

This writer's book with GM Denker "The Bobby Fischer I
Know and Other Stories" is still verboten despite excellent
reviews, and the vast majority of Ray Keene's works are also
off limits. A couple of GM Larry Evans' books published by
Cardoza have returned to the Cafe after a lot of battling.

The boycott was real enough, and just as the
Oxford Companion blacked out the Soviet boycott
against Korchnoi, a similar blackout would have
occurred re the works of certain authors except for
the pressure applied on this and other forums.

In his rehearsal of major book chains and their
buying habits, NM Kingston's line amounts to this:
they are a bunch of dopes who just buy bulk and send
back what doesn't sell.

SHELF SPACE is money in book stores. They do
not for long stock books that don't sell. Eric's
works have been around for years, and they continue
to occupy SHELF SPACE. I assume that, say, Jim Eade's
"Chess for Dummies" has sold well. It occupied and
continues to occupy SHELF SPACE in major chains. I do
not have the sales statistics in front of me, but I
make the assumption. Why?

Normal intellectual hygiene would accord the
benefit of assumption to the proposition that Mr.
Schiller's works are doing right-okay. NM Kingston's
tendentious analysis is a form of thesis-dishonesty.

I know nothing about the Hawaii U.S. Open and
will leave Eric or others to comment on the charge
that NM Kingston backs up only with his assertion.
It is just another smear that has nothing to do with
his books being banned at the Cafe.

Nor, to be sure, will we be hearing soon from
NM Kingston about how it happened that the Oxford
Companion blacked out Boris Gulko's status as a
refusenik and the years he spent unable to play. NM
Kingston has told us that he does not have the first
edition of the Companion, and we may be certain that
he will not soon obtain it or seek out knowledge of
its contents.

That is how NM Kingston works.

Taylor Kingston

2005-10-07, 7:32 pm

Mike Murray wrote:

quote:

> Barnes and Noble provides sales ranking for new books they sell. For
> some of the Schiller books:
> Standard Chess Openings: 147,194
> Gambit Chess Openings 122,936
> Learn From Bobby Fischer's Greatest Games: 192,450
> Other Schiller titles that I checked (I quit after about 12) ranged
> from about 360,000 to 614,000.
> So, it appears that sales of Schiller's books are in the quantitative
> neighborhood of many titles stocked by Chess Cafe.

An apples-and-oranges comparison. B&N is a full-spectrum bookstore,
ChessCafe is a specialty operation with a different clientele. B&N gets
customers like Aunt Minny, who doesn't even play chess and doesn't know
Eric Schiller from Phyllis Diller, but goes to B&N to buy a chess book
for her little nephew. In contrast, the average ChessCafe buyer is much
better informed, far more likely to be aware of Schiller's shoddiness.
A B&N fish will take Schiller's bait; the savvy chessplayer leaves it
alone.
A proper sales comparison would involve checking other *_chess_*
booksellers. How do Schiller books sell compared to, say, Dvoretsky,
Seirawan, Nunn, M=FCller, Watson et al among *_booksellers specializing
in chess_*, as ChessCafe does?

quote:

> It would be legitimate to ask how closely sales at B&N might map to
> potential sales at Chess Cafe, and I have no idea how to answer this.

Exactly my point.

Chess One

2005-10-07, 7:32 pm

<Equinorm@AOL.com> wrote in message
news:1128652976.940044.155410@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

quote:

> At the risk of repeating my opinion one (or more?) too many times,
> quality is a legitimate issue and one which would justify the USCF,
> Chess Cafe, or any other seller who cares about their customers not
> carrying Mr. Schiller's books.
>
> I don't have any strong opinions on chess politics or any significant
> knowledge of Mr. Schiller's role in the same, and I have nothing
> against Mr. Schiller personally; I know him only through his chess
> books. But I do think there is a perfectly good reason for the USCF or
> Chess Cafe not to carry the vast majority of his books: namely, that
> most of them are of poor quality.
>
> So I wonder at Mr. Innes' conclusion that all critics of Mr. Schiller's
> books are motivated by political or personal animus.

That is no conclusion I reached - and I don't understand the comment. I
noted that USCF is antagonistic to Schiller, and I wonder why? So I made
some comments which attempt to objectify the issue by asking if other book
vendors carry Schiller's books - since it is usually the customer who
determines what is on sale.

I note that the chains may indeed buy blocks of books from publishers and
distributors, and over time will eliminate titles which do not sell for no
other than commercial reasons - Eric Schiller's books seem to have survived
this market-test.

If USCF do not like his for qualitative reasons, I would agree that they
have the power not to sell them. But the issue here is that USCF's
fulfillment service, which is Chesscafe, have relied on their own reviewer
of some books to reach a conclusion of all Schiller's books.

Again, if all the titles were 'of poor quality' then it is within the power
of USCF to not offer them for sale, but shouldn't this standard extend to
all titles? And besides, what if the public disagrees with the reviewer?

We are really examining 2 things; we have a reviewer acting as a censor, and
we have the added factor of the author writing uncomplimentary things about
USCF and therefore agitation to formally ban the books.

So which is it? If we add the other repressed writer, Ray Keene's books, to
this assessment, I note that he is also 'not in bed with' the politicos
[laugh] and I am really asking if USCF is acting political reasons in RK's
case too?

quote:

> I must take issue
> with this statement. It is a practice too frequently employed in our
> uncivil times: to cast aspersions on the motives of those who disagree
> with us, as if not sharing our opinions is evidence of malice or some
> nefarious purpose.

I think I wrote a statement here that said that chessville gave a Schiller
title a bad review but offered it for sale, together with a dozen other
Schiller titles. So I am not sure I am making any reference to evidence of
malice or some nefarious purpose. Evidently my own website holds no malice
towards Schiller, while still being able to criticise his books on
occassion. USCF and Chesscafe does not seem to act from the same basis - so
what is the 'nefarious' basis for their behavior?

quote:

> It is a taint now infecting virtually all political
> struggles in our country, and I fear the taint is spreading to other
> realms of discourse. IMO, the recognition that reasonable men and women
> may disagree with one's own strongly held opinions is one sign of
> emotional maturity.

Even so far that a reader may disagree with a reviewer, Geof!

Some people here are agitating to remove that right to disagree, by banning
books.

Cordially, Phil Innes

quote:

> - Geof Strayer
>

Chess One

2005-10-07, 7:32 pm

<parker.rose@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1128652268.433543.189920@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

quote:

> Chess One wrote:

quote:

> I did a little poking around the Chessville site. Mr. Innes, who has
> identified himself as the business manager of Chessville, apparently
> fails to tell us that Chessville really has no stock at all.

True - Chessville uses a fullfillment service.

At the bottom of this message Mr. Rose states: "My point is that I think it
is a little unfair to proclaim what an equal-opportunity bookstore you are
when you are really not a bookstore at all."

Yes, it would be unfair if I had actually proclaimed "equal opportunity"
[which I didn't seem to write] and where the fulfillment center is located
doesn't seem to have any significance for an e-zine, since the site is
virtual. Its true 'there is no store' but neither is Chesscafe a cafe.

Phil Innes

quote:

> It seems
> they do not actually carry anything. The Chessville "shop" is run by
> "Chess4Less," Malcolm Pein's West Palm Beach, Florida corporation
> (along with "Classical Games") that has very quietly become the "online
> store" for a few chess web sites (e.g., the ICC, at chessclub.com).
> This is the same Malcolm Pein who did such a horrendous job for the
> immediate year or two before the USCF B&E had to be outsourced, because
> of the bad job by... Malcolm Pein.
>
> While I was there, I did a little price comparing. Amazon.com may be a
> threat to book dealers everywhere, chess and non-chess alike. But
> Pein's pricing seems to be to give ZERO off the suggested retail price.
> Nada. Rien. (This no-discount pricing is the same at every site he
> runs, including his London Chess Centre) With one notable exception...
>
> As for Pein's view of Schiller's books, anyone who gets his magazine
> CHESS out of London cannot but help to have noted that Schiller's books
> have been figured prominently over the past 6, 8 or 12 months - as
> giveaways and heavily discounted offerings. So I guess he does discount
> some books. <g>
>
> ChessCafe's pricing cannot match Amazon's (so whose does?). But the
> pricing is not only virtually uniformly lower than the Chessville/Pein
> prices, but it also pays 13.5% (?) to the USCF.
>
> My point is that I think it is a little unfair to proclaim what an
> equal-opportunity bookstore you are when you are really not a bookstore
> at all.
>
> Parker Rose
>

parker.rose@hotmail.com

2005-10-07, 7:32 pm

Chess One wrote:

quote:

>Yes, it would be unfair if I had actually proclaimed "equal opportunity"
>[which I didn't seem to write] and where the fulfillment center is located
>doesn't seem to have any significance for an e-zine, since the site is
>virtual. Its true 'there is no store' but neither is Chesscafe a cafe.

A silly comment. You miss the point entirely. I will type more slowly.
Because all that is going on is that "Malcolm The Discounter" is
drop-shipping for Chessville, you have no capital invested in
inventory. You don't have to worry whether a book stays on the shelf
unsold for one week, one month or one year. You are just presenting
MTD's selection as yours. And I would bet dollars to donuts that
Chessville has little or no say in what is offered by MTD.

Parker Rose

Chess One

2005-10-07, 7:32 pm

<parker.rose@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1128692390.435965.207460@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

quote:

> Chess One wrote:
>
>
>
> A silly comment. You miss the point entirely.

Yes - I missed your point which seemed to father this term "equal
opportunity" onto me, which confused me for some time, since I never wrote
it. This is a newsgroup though, and happens a lot, especially when a writer
does not thread their text with another person's writing.

David Kane makes a good point that it is much harder to make mistakes, or
provoke with straw-man arguments if people avoid this simple process - which
serves 80%+ of posts.

quote:

> I will type more slowly.
> Because all that is going on is that "Malcolm The Discounter" is
> drop-shipping for Chessville, you have no capital invested in
> inventory. You don't have to worry whether a book stays on the shelf
> unsold for one week, one month or one year.

Is the context of this conversation what a retailer will hold in their
store? Would you consider it important what MTD puts in its store? What
relationship is there with the book review and the bookseller?

quote:

> You are just presenting
> MTD's selection as yours. And I would bet dollars to donuts that
> Chessville has little or no say in what is offered by MTD.

If MTD puts out 20 titles by one author, would this fact any significance
for you? We might then compare that with Chesscafe's holding of Schiller
titles [which was zero yeserday.]

Phil Innes

quote:

> Parker Rose
>

Mike Murray

2005-10-07, 7:32 pm

On 7 Oct 2005 06:39:50 -0700, parker.rose@hotmail.com wrote:

quote:

>Because all that is going on is that "Malcolm The Discounter" is
>drop-shipping for Chessville, you have no capital invested in
>inventory. You don't have to worry whether a book stays on the shelf
>unsold for one week, one month or one year.

Exactly.

And, as I've mentioned in related threads, Amazon has a program that
allows other websites to affiliate with them, feature merchandise sold
at Amazon, and if a viewer clicks through the affiliated site and buys
the product at Amazon, the original site gets a cut of the sales.

All this, without physically stocking anything. Instead of shelf
space, all it costs is screen real estate.

Chess Cafe, the retail face of the USCF, could stock the boutique
merchandise, the highly specialized, well-reviewed, and
bang-up-to-date books that it does today, but devote a separate
section to ALL the other in-print chess books that aren't in the
Cafe's physical inventory, and let the reader click through to Amazon.

If this works, it looks like pure gravy to me.

Since many chess players go to Chess Cafe anyway to read the articles,
there's no reason they couldn't start there when shopping, knowing
that they'll funnel some money to USCF, even if they end up buying
from Amazon.

Mike Murray

2005-10-07, 7:33 pm

On 7 Oct 2005 05:35:53 -0700, "Taylor Kingston"
<tkingston@chittenden.com> wrote:

quote:

> B&N is a full-spectrum bookstore,
>ChessCafe is a specialty operation with a different clientele. B&N gets
>customers like Aunt Minny, who doesn't even play chess and doesn't know
>Eric Schiller from Phyllis Diller, but goes to B&N to buy a chess book
>for her little nephew. In contrast, the average ChessCafe buyer is much
>better informed, far more likely to be aware of Schiller's shoddiness.
>A B&N fish will take Schiller's bait; the savvy chessplayer leaves it
>alone.

Seems to me we should be searching for a way to reel in old Aunt Minny
who is shopping for a gift book for nerdy young nephew.

quote:

> A proper sales comparison would involve checking other *_chess_*
>booksellers. How do Schiller books sell compared to, say, Dvoretsky,
>Seirawan, Nunn, Müller, Watson et al among *_booksellers specializing
>in chess_*, as ChessCafe does?

This, unquestionably, would be more precise. But possibly leads us in
the wrong direction. In this web-savvy environment, our competition
is not necessarily other chess booksellers, but Amazon and B&N.
Someone shopping at Chess Cafe is quite likely to have another window
open to one of the major online booksellers for price comparison. And
this web-shopper gets to see all the snappy titles not stocked at
Cafe.

Taylor Kingston

2005-10-07, 7:33 pm

Mike Murray wrote:

quote:

> Seems to me we should be searching for a way to reel in old Aunt Minny
> who is shopping for a gift book for nerdy young nephew.

If you know of a cost-effective way to get Aunt Minny to join the
USCF, subscribe to Chess Life, or just shop at ChessCafe.com, by all
means pass the information on to the federation. They'd love to hear
about it. I certainly have no answers on that score.
However, in this thread I'm only addressing the Schiller issue. I
doubt that putting more Schiller on the catalog would achieve the
desired effect.

quote:

> In this web-savvy environment, our competition
> is not necessarily other chess booksellers, but Amazon and B&N.
> Someone shopping at Chess Cafe is quite likely to have another window
> open to one of the major online booksellers for price comparison. And
> this web-shopper gets to see all the snappy titles not stocked at
> Cafe.

I'm not sure what "snappy titles not stocked" you refer to, since as
far as I know, ChessCafe carries more chess titles than any other
retailer in North America. But your point about the level and nature of
the competition seems well taken, Mike. Feel free to pass any
suggestions on to ChessCafe; perhaps they will prove useful.
Certainly more useful than the silly and/or spiteful fallacies and
innuendoes of the Schiller partisans here, whose crusade to foist junk
on the American chess public is one of the more sorry and mind-boggling
spectacles to unfold on this newsgroup in recent years.

Mike Murray

2005-10-07, 7:33 pm

On 7 Oct 2005 08:12:43 -0700, "Taylor Kingston"
<tkingston@chittenden.com> wrote:

quote:

[vbcol=seagreen]
> I'm not sure what "snappy titles not stocked" you refer to, since as
>far as I know, ChessCafe carries more chess titles than any other
>retailer in North America.

Schiller seems to have Reinfeld's penchant for snappy titles.

quote:

>Feel free to pass any
>suggestions on to ChessCafe; perhaps they will prove useful.
> Certainly more useful than the silly and/or spiteful fallacies and
>innuendoes of the Schiller partisans here, whose crusade to foist junk
>on the American chess public is one of the more sorry and mind-boggling
>spectacles to unfold on this newsgroup in recent years.

No sane retailer wants to stock books that don't sell.

And, a bookseller positioning itself as a boutique high-end retailer
wouldn't want to sell bad books.

The issue under discussion has been whether these criteria have been
applied more stringently to some authors than others.

Other than possibly Sam Sloan, I haven't seen a lot of outright
Schiller partisanship in these recent discussions. His books came up
as one instance of possible bias in Chess Cafe (the current retail
face of the USCF) decisions as to what products to stock.

Would Schiller's books really not sell? Are other books with negative
reviews stocked by Chess Cafe? Are other well-received chess books
*not* stocked and if not, why not? To me, these are reasonable
questions. And such answers as have emerged from the discussion have
not all been to Cafe's disadvantage (for example, your point that some
of Schiller's titles *have* been stocked in the past).

Why you would consider this discussion "one of the more sorry and
mind-boggling spectacles to unfold on this newsgroup in recent years"
is itself mind-boggling to me. After all, the competition in the
group for "sorry and mind-boggling" awards is pretty darned intense.

David Richerby

2005-10-07, 7:33 pm

Mike Murray <mikemurray@despammed.com> wrote:

quote:

> Seems to me we should be searching for a way to reel in old Aunt Minny
> who is shopping for a gift book for nerdy young nephew.

Perhaps but I think a wish list is about the only way of doing this.
Otherwise, Aunt Minny has no idea what kind of chess book her nerdy
nephew might want.

Dave.

--
David Richerby Edible Book (TM): it's like a romantic
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ novel but you can eat it!

cynic

2005-10-07, 7:33 pm

* NM Kingston is saying that several years ago a
work by Eric Schiller was carried and that recently,
after a lot of fracas, another work is being sold.
This writer's book with GM Denker "The Bobby Fischer I
Know and Other Stories" is still verboten despite excellent
reviews, and the vast majority of Ray Keene's works are also
off limits. A couple of GM Larry Evans' books published by
Cardoza have returned to the Cafe after a lot of battling.* Parrthenon

* I'm not sure what "snappy titles not stocked" you refer to, since as
far as I know, ChessCafe carries more chess titles than any other
retailer in North America. But your point about the level and nature of

the competition seems well taken, Mike. Feel free to pass any
suggestions on to ChessCafe; perhaps they will prove useful.
Certainly more useful than the silly and/or spiteful fallacies and
innuendoes of the Schiller partisans here, whose crusade to foist junk
on the American chess public is one of the more sorry and mind-boggling

spectacles to unfold on this newsgroup in recent years.* Taylor
Kingston

The chief apologist for the Cafe and the main purveyor of junk that
I
see in this thread is none other than Taylor Kingston himself.

Taylor Kingston

2005-10-07, 7:33 pm

Mike Murray wrote:

quote:

> On 7 Oct 2005 08:12:43 -0700, "Taylor Kingston"
> <tkingston@chittenden.com> wrote:
>
> Schiller seems to have Reinfeld's penchant for snappy titles.

Perhaps, but on the whole Fred wrote better books.

quote:

> Other than possibly Sam Sloan, I haven't seen a lot of outright
> Schiller partisanship in these recent discussions.

Perhaps we have looked at different posts. There have been others.

quote:

> Why you would consider this discussion "one of the more sorry and
> mind-boggling spectacles to unfold on this newsgroup in recent years"
> is itself mind-boggling to me. After all, the competition in the
> group for "sorry and mind-boggling" awards is pretty darned intense.

Agreed, many other candidate threads come to mind. It's just that the
Schiller oeuvre is so demonstrably shoddy. It amazes me that anyone
even pretending to be genuinely concerned for the quality of chess
literature and the well-being of the chess public would take up his
cause.
It's like someone who claims to be a nutritionist asking "Should we
not seriously examine whether dirt is a food? Why is dirt banned from
grocery stores? What sinister cabal is denying us our right to eat
dirt?" A somewhat extreme analogy, but I think you get my point.

Taylor Kingston

2005-10-07, 7:33 pm

Mike Murray wrote:

quote:

> On 7 Oct 2005 08:12:43 -0700, "Taylor Kingston"
> <tkingston@chittenden.com> wrote:
>
> Schiller seems to have Reinfeld's penchant for snappy titles.

Perhaps, but on the whole Fred wrote better books.

quote:

> Other than possibly Sam Sloan, I haven't seen a lot of outright
> Schiller partisanship in these recent discussions.

Perhaps we have looked at different posts. There have been others.

quote:

> Why you would consider this discussion "one of the more sorry and
> mind-boggling spectacles to unfold on this newsgroup in recent years"
> is itself mind-boggling to me. After all, the competition in the
> group for "sorry and mind-boggling" awards is pretty darned intense.

Larry Tapper

2005-10-07, 7:33 pm

Larry Parr writes:

"...A couple of GM Larry Evans' books published by
Cardoza have returned to the Cafe after a lot of battling."

A lot of battling? What does this refer to? I'm just curious.

Larry T.

ron_suarez_chess@yahoo.com

2005-10-07, 7:33 pm

Let us take a moment and see what some other internet chess book and
equipment dealers offer.

The Chess House has one title by Schiller and one by Keene.

Your Move Chess and Games aka ICD, has zero Schiller books and 4 books
by Keene.

OK, that is a short sampling of legitimate dealers that actually do a
business and their offerings. For whatever reason, the above retailers
do not much of either author's works to speak of especially in light of
the volume of work that Eric has produced.

I don't know why the USCF does not offer any of Keene's books, I have
not heard nor seen anywhere that the quality of his books is poor.

I too have heard and read scathing reviews of many of Schiller's works.
I have also read that he does have some titles that are of a decent
quality. Being a patzer myself, I am not a good authority to qualify a
work as being good or not.

I agree with Phil that the USCF store (ChessCafe operating) should
indeed offer some of Schiller's and Keene's books. If the protest is
due to the quality of the work, I have 2 responses to that. First is
that Eric does indeed have a few books that has received some decent
acceptance by qualified reviewers. Why does the bookstore not carry
some of them. Secondly, the USCF bookstore has historically
(hysterically) and presently does carry some other material of
questionable quality. What sells sells. If they don't offer something
it will certainly never sell. Just like a chess game, if you resign
you will certainly never have a chance to draw or win that game.

Ron Suarez

Larry Tapper wrote:

quote:

> Larry Parr writes:
>
> "...A couple of GM Larry Evans' books published by
> Cardoza have returned to the Cafe after a lot of battling."
>
> A lot of battling? What does this refer to? I'm just curious.
>
> Larry T.

Harold Buck

2005-10-07, 7:33 pm

In article <1128704063.741654.164440@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
"Taylor Kingston" <tkingston@chittenden.com> wrote:

quote:

> Agreed, many other candidate threads come to mind. It's just that the
> Schiller oeuvre is so demonstrably shoddy.

It occurs to me that it might be nice to have a metric for how shoddy a
chess book is. This, of course, is no easy matter in general, but for
opening books--which Schiller churns out pretty regularly--you could
have a good chess computer play out both sides of the recommended lines
and see what percentage result in the predicted outcome for those lines.
It would be interesting to see how various authors stacked up against
each other.

--Harold Buck

"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson

Taylor Kingston

2005-10-07, 7:33 pm

Harold Buck wrote:

quote:

> It occurs to me that it might be nice to have a metric for how shoddy a
> chess book is. This, of course, is no easy matter in general, but for
> opening books--which Schiller churns out pretty regularly--you could
> have a good chess computer play out both sides of the recommended lines
> and see what percentage result in the predicted outcome for those lines.

With Schiller it's not just that he will recommend inferior lines or
misevaluate a position. His errors are legion. He presents games
inaccurately, omitting or changing moves. Much of his "work" is
borrowed from other writers, whom he does even copy correctly,
misquoting or misrepresenting their analysis. He does not even remember
what he himself writes, contradicting himself from one paragraph to the
next, or even one sentence to the next.
Aside from bad chess analysis, he also regularly demonstrates amazing
ignorance and misunderstanding of chess history. For example, in a
recent book he showed himself unaware that Euwe was ever world
champion.
I refer interested readers to this link:

www.chesscafe.com/text/review462.pdf

It's the only review of a Schiller book I've done for ChessCafe.com.
It points out many problems typical of his work.

Chess One

2005-10-07, 7:33 pm

"Harold Buck" <no_one_knows@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:no_one_knows-F021DE.14420807102005@comcast.dca.giganews.com...

quote:

> In article <1128704063.741654.164440@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> "Taylor Kingston" <tkingston@chittenden.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> It occurs to me that it might be nice to have a metric for how shoddy a
> chess book is. This, of course, is no easy matter in general, but for
> opening books--which Schiller churns out pretty regularly--you could
> have a good chess computer play out both sides of the recommended lines
> and see what percentage result in the predicted outcome for those lines.
> It would be interesting to see how various authors stacked up against
> each other.
>
> --Harold Buck

David Levy did that back in the... um, seventies? Not exactly as Harold
states above, but they give percentage wins/draws/loses for each opening,
and each line within an opening - I think he was the first to compile
statistics with the new fangled computers. I have his books on the KID and
the English. Phil

quote:

> "I used to rock and roll all night,
> and party every day.
> Then it was every other day. . . ."
> -Homer J. Simpson

Mike Murray

2005-10-07, 7:33 pm

On 7 Oct 2005 13:15:57 -0700, "Taylor Kingston"
<tkingston@chittenden.com> wrote:

quote:

> I refer interested readers to this link:

quote:

> www.chesscafe.com/text/review462.pdf

quote:

> It's the only review of a Schiller book I've done for ChessCafe.com.
>It points out many problems typical of his work.

I knew there was a reason I didn't buy this book. However, where you
state,

<quote>
Then occasionally there is the uniquely Schilleresque
moment. For example, in Fischer-Sherwin,
New Jersey Open, 1957, after 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d3 Nc6
4.g3 Nf6 5.Bg2 Be7 6.0-0 0-0 7.Nbd2, ...
Schiller writes: “7…d5 is the natural move in the Sicilian
Defense. In this case, play would take place in the French
Defense, which normally starts 1.e4 e6.” A remark either
pointless or nonsensical. And why does Schiller calls [sic] this a
French, since on the previous page his heading clearly
states: “The Opening: Sicilian Defense, Closed
Variation”? (Even though this is a King’s Indian Attack,
and not a Closed Sicilian with 2.Nc3.)
</quote>

Well, after 7 ... d5, the opening would have transposed into a
position commonly reached via the French, so Schiller's remark is
neither pointless nor nonsensical, although his wording sounds as if
it's been poorly translated from Elbonian. And I've seen various
authors lump the classic Closed, the Grand Prix, the Big Clamp, 2 g3,
and the King's Indian Attack treatment of the Sicilian under the
"Closed Sicilian" rubric (i.e., if it's not 2 N-KB3, not the Morra,
not the Wing Gambit, then it must be the Closed).

Chess One

2005-10-07, 7:33 pm

"Taylor Kingston" <tkingston@chittenden.com> wrote in message
news:1128716157.099941.172550@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...

quote:

>
> Harold Buck wrote:
>
> With Schiller it's not just that he will recommend inferior lines or
> misevaluate a position. His errors are legion. He presents games
> inaccurately, omitting or changing moves. Much of his "work" is
> borrowed from other writers, whom he does even copy correctly,

that is an interesting phenomenum! it happens so often that when a complaint
is made about another person, one messes up one's own statement about it

quote:

> misquoting or misrepresenting their analysis. He does not even remember
> what he himself writes, contradicting himself from one paragraph to the
> next, or even one sentence to the next.

Does this mean that it happens all the time, some of the time, or has
happened just a couple of times? If he has put out a gazillion books, then
it is understandable - especially as his market appears to tbe the sub-1800
player, and what does it matter [lol!]

quote:

> Aside from bad chess analysis, he also regularly demonstrates amazing
> ignorance and misunderstanding of chess history. For example, in a
> recent book he showed himself unaware that Euwe was ever world
> champion.

I once wrote to a bloke who didn't know that his subject used to XXXX-over
Jews. It happens, no big deal, no one died

Phil

quote:

> I refer interested readers to this link:
>
> www.chesscafe.com/text/review462.pdf
>
> It's the only review of a Schiller book I've done for ChessCafe.com.
> It points out many problems typical of his work.
>

Taylor Kingston

2005-10-07, 7:33 pm

We will have to agree to differ on your point below, Mike. I said
exactly what I meant and stand by it.

Mike Murray wrote:

quote:

> On 7 Oct 2005 13:15:57 -0700, "Taylor Kingston"
> <tkingston@chittenden.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> I knew there was a reason I didn't buy this book. However, where you
> state,
>
> <quote>
> Then occasionally there is the uniquely Schilleresque
> moment. For example, in Fischer-Sherwin,
> New Jersey Open, 1957, after 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d3 Nc6
> 4.g3 Nf6 5.Bg2 Be7 6.0-0 0-0 7.Nbd2, ...
> Schiller writes: "7...d5 is the natural move in the Sicilian
> Defense. In this case, play would take place in the French
> Defense, which normally starts 1.e4 e6." A remark either
> pointless or nonsensical. And why does Schiller calls [sic] this a
> French, since on the previous page his heading clearly
> states: "The Opening: Sicilian Defense, Closed
> Variation"? (Even though this is a King's Indian Attack,
> and not a Closed Sicilian with 2.Nc3.)
> </quote>
>
> Well, after 7 ... d5, the opening would have transposed into a
> position commonly reached via the French, so Schiller's remark is
> neither pointless nor nonsensical, although his wording sounds as if
> it's been poorly translated from Elbonian. And I've seen various
> authors lump the classic Closed, the Grand Prix, the Big Clamp, 2 g3,
> and the King's Indian Attack treatment of the Sicilian under the
> "Closed Sicilian" rubric (i.e., if it's not 2 N-KB3, not the Morra,
> not the Wing Gambit, then it must be the Closed).

Louis Blair

2005-10-07, 7:33 pm

Mike Murray wrote (Thu, 06 Oct 2005 17:52:07 -0700):

quote:

> Some books that Louis Blair mentioned in a related thread:
> Basic Chess Endings (Fine) 191,984
> Pandolfini's Endgame Course: 103,781
> Excelling at Technical Chess: 362,624
> Fundamental Chess Endings 534,697
> Survival Guide to Rook Endings 520,818
> Chess Endgame Training 555,099

_
I did not intend that my list be used for this sort of
purpose. It might be better to check for a list
that is not nearly all endgame books.

Mike Murray

2005-10-07, 7:33 pm

On 7 Oct 2005 14:40:41 -0700, "Louis Blair" <lblai@blackburn.edu>
wrote:

quote:

>Mike Murray wrote (Thu, 06 Oct 2005 17:52:07 -0700):

quote:

[vbcol=seagreen]
>_
>I did not intend that my list be used for this sort of
>purpose. It might be better to check for a list
>that is not nearly all endgame books.

A purely random list would have been more rigorous.

Feel free to pull some more books out of your mental hat.

As I mentioned, I checked some other books not on your list. I didn't
mention the ones that were out of print.

Here's some more, just to keep you happy:

MCO-14: 121,407
Ideas Behind the Chess Openings (Fine): 85,459
Chess Openings the Easy Way: 114,809
Chess Openings: Traps and Zaps 25,776 (another best seller!)
Chess: 5334 Problems, Combinations and Games: 55,113
1001 Brilliant Ways to Checkmate: 138,219
Bobby Fischer Teaches Chess: 23,436 (Fischer wins again!)
Bobby Fischer's Outrageous Chess Moves: 235,496
Mastering the Sicilian (Kopec): 119,732
Anti-Sicilians: A Guide for Black: 301,640
Secrets of Modern Chess Strategy (Watson): 164,095

parrthenon@cs.com

2005-10-07, 11:32 pm

JUST CURIOUS

<Larry Parr writes: "...A couple of GM Larry Evans' books published by
Cardoza have returned to the Cafe after a lot of battling." A lot of
battling? What does this refer to? I'm just curious.> -- Larry Tapper

When I last checked on September 12, 2005, no books published by
Cardoza were listed at the Cafe. Apparently, after this bias was
exposed on various websites, they now handle some titles by GM Evans.
His "Chess Endgame Quiz" (Cardoza 2002) is still in print and a good
seller, but it doesn't seem to be offered at the Cafe. The following
post appeared here on September 12 under the heading of "Misleading
Book Titles."

AUTHORS ON HANON'S ENEMY LIST

quote:

>As you may be aware there is a big political dispute going

on between the owner of Chess Cafe and Eric Schiller so they
are hardly an unbiased source.> Sam Sloan

Taylor Kingston assures us there is no bias at the Censored Cafe,
but Eric Schiller carried this dispute to the Executive Board. They
cannot control which books Hanon Russell chooses to carry.
I couldn't find an index under authors but there is one under
publishers.

CARDOZA is not there at all (they publish Larry Evans and Eric
Schiller)

DOVER is there but the classic "New Ideas In Chess" by Larry Evans is
not listed.

HARDINGE SIMPOLE is also MIA. Ray Keene is affiliated with this firm
that has reprinted a number of classics as well as "The Bobby Fischer I
Knew, and Other Stories" by Larry Parr and Arnold Denker.

Harold Buck

2005-10-07, 11:32 pm

In article <CsB1f.55$KR1.27@trndny06>, "Chess One" <innes8@verizon.net>
wrote:

quote:

> "Harold Buck" <no_one_knows@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:no_one_knows-F021DE.14420807102005@comcast.dca.giganews.com...
>
> David Levy did that back in the... um, seventies? Not exactly as Harold
> states above, but they give percentage wins/draws/loses for each opening,
> and each line within an opening - I think he was the first to compile
> statistics with the new fangled computers. I have his books on the KID and
> the English. Phil

I'm not sure if you get what I'm saying: I don't want to evaluate the
openings, I want to evaluate how accurate the author's evaluations and
analysis are.

--Harold Buck

"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson

Ray Gordon

2005-10-08, 2:31 am

> 1. The claim that ChessCafe carries nothing by authors Keene, Evans

quote:

> and Schiller, or the publisher Cardoza, is false.

Darn.

Spamscone@yahoo.com

2005-10-08, 5:32 am

parker.rose@hotmail.com wrote:

quote:

> Chess One wrote:
>
>
>
> A silly comment. You miss the point entirely.

Entirely expected, given your correspondent.

quote:

>I will type more slowly.

Good luck. I doubt it will help.

quote:

> Because all that is going on is that "Malcolm The Discounter" is
> drop-shipping for Chessville, you have no capital invested in
> inventory. You don't have to worry whether a book stays on the shelf
> unsold for one week, one month or one year. You are just presenting
> MTD's selection as yours. And I would bet dollars to donuts that
> Chessville has little or no say in what is offered by MTD.

One wonders what purpose Mr. Innes' posts to this thread serve aside
from advertising his business.

Spamscone@yahoo.com

2005-10-08, 5:32 am

Chess One wrote:

quote:

> "Taylor Kingston" <tkingston@chittenden.com> wrote in message
> news:1128644046.426042.121030@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> FACT: Chessville books by Schiller =3D 20, USCF/Chesscafe books by Schill=

er =3D

quote:

> ZERO
> FACT: Chessville books by Keene =3D 9, USCF/Chesscafe books by Keene =3D 1

I'm not surprised that Chessvile features books by Schiller; the
website is relentlessly downmarket in its approach. Publishing cranks
like Innes and James Schroeder and featuring stealth advertising for
chess politicians as 'articles' is surely a flight from quality.

quote:

> Phil Innes
> Business Manager,
> Chessville

Innes has repeatedly denied he is the author of the inane "Alekhine's
Parrot", but the latest Parrot posting echoes his posts here:

"USCF Delegates at the US Open were informed that Chess Caf=E9 is in
deep trouble. In a deal to provide merchandising services to USCF's
members the Caf=E9 has been unable to pay up, and is now thought to owe
USCF $250,000; an immediate demand for the money would bankrupt it. A
compromise motion to extend the deal to the year 2012 was rejected by
USCF's board. Chess Caf=E9 rather controversially have banned books
by Evans, Keene and Schiller, some of the best-selling authors in
chess."

Chess One

2005-10-08, 5:32 am

>> > It occurs to me that it might be nice to have a metric for how shoddy a

quote:

[vbcol=seagreen]
> I'm not sure if you get what I'm saying: I don't want to evaluate the
> openings, I want to evaluate how accurate the author's evaluations and
> analysis are.

Yeah I do get it Harold - which is why I said Levy's is not quite to the
same point as yours.

There are 2 factors which seem important to note which have to do with chess
results - yours is one of them, what theoretical lines are 'sound'. The
second seems to be Levy's idea which is more empirical - statistically, what
lines produce what results OTB? even if they are 'unsound'.

But let's return to your idea and ask if anyone has actually performed
computer checking of various lines compared to an author's suggested lines.

Phil

quote:

> --Harold Buck

Chess One

2005-10-08, 5:32 am

Let's get serious a moment:

There are some serious issues on these newsgroups this week, this issue of
censorship and fair representation of authors is one of them [another seems
to be the historical background of political collusion in the world
championship process by the USSR.]

Politics plays its part in both issues - and both include repressions, one
East the other West.

I make a few replies below about what constitutes fair journalistic
practice, trading and so on, and rather than get into answering such crap as
Brennen writes, [he already has received responses to his 'accusations']
since it is entirely pointless and argumentative to the point that
previously we have heard about Innes 'not really knowing GMs' but then
'grandstanding with GMs', now we got 'relentlessly downmarket' whatever that
can mean.

He does not understand how an editorial column works, AND perhaps he even
has a personal level of bias as a much rejected potential author?

Chessville aims at massive scholastic support in chess and also for the
typically rated club-player 1400-1700, which is somewhat higher than Mr.
Brennen's own rating. This is certainly downmarket from addressing Master,
IM & GM chess in "64", and intentionally so.

Susan Polgar will soon join Chessville to write a new column specifically on
Scholastics, which she intends to make /the/ scholastic chess column on the
web.

Chessville columns marked 'editorial' like in any magazine can be written by
anyone, even combinations of people, even if it is normally one person's
normal focus. The column mentioned below /often/ has several contributors to
any one edition of it.

Cordially, Phil Innes

<Spamscone@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1128759809.854236.102540@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...

Chess One wrote:

quote:

> "Taylor Kingston" <tkingston@chittenden.com> wrote in message
> news:1128644046.426042.121030@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> FACT: Chessville books by Schiller = 20, USCF/Chesscafe books by Schiller
> =
> ZERO
> FACT: Chessville books by Keene = 9, USCF/Chesscafe books by Keene = 1

quote:

> Phil Innes
> Business Manager,
> Chessville

Innes has repeatedly denied he is the author of the inane "Alekhine's
Parrot", but the latest Parrot posting echoes his posts here:

"USCF Delegates at the US Open were informed that Chess Café is in
deep trouble. In a deal to provide merchandising services to USCF's
members the Café has been unable to pay up, and is now thought to owe
USCF $250,000; an immediate demand for the money would bankrupt it. A
compromise motion to extend the deal to the year 2012 was rejected by
USCF's board. Chess Café rather controversially have banned books
by Evans, Keene and Schiller, some of the best-selling authors in
chess."

Spamscone@yahoo.com

2005-10-08, 7:32 pm

Chess One wrote:

quote:

> Let's get serious a moment:
>
> There are some serious issues on these newsgroups this week, this issue of
> censorship and fair representation of authors is one of them [another seems
> to be the historical background of political collusion in the world
> championship process by the USSR.]
>
> Politics plays its part in both issues - and both include repressions, one
> East the other West.
>
> I make a few replies below about what constitutes fair journalistic
> practice, trading and so on, and rather than get into answering such crap as
> Brennen writes, [he already has received responses to his 'accusations']
> since it is entirely pointless and argumentative to the point that
> previously we have heard about Innes 'not really knowing GMs' but then
> 'grandstanding with GMs',

A great many people know GMs Phil. Unlike you we don't talk about it
constantly in an attempt to appear important.

now we got 'relentlessly downmarket' whatever that

quote:

> can mean.

The English meaning seems clear enough. Sorry I couldn't write it in
British for you.

quote:

> He does not understand how an editorial column works, AND perhaps he even
> has a personal level of bias as a much rejected potential author?

Could you name some of the publications who allegedly have "rejected"
my work?

quote:

> Chessville aims at massive scholastic support in chess and also for the
> typically rated club-player 1400-1700, which is somewhat higher than Mr.
> Brennen's own rating.

What an outright lie, as anyone who checks at the USCF website will
see. And it's amazing rating snobbery coming from someone who
continually lies about having a 2450 rating in the past!

This is certainly downmarket from addressing Master,

quote:

> IM & GM chess in "64", and intentionally so.

Innes, of course, refuses to address the "flight from quality" of
Chessvile.

Harold Buck

2005-10-08, 7:32 pm

In article <1128754294.957346.276400@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
Equinorm@AOL.com wrote:

quote:

> I find that a lot of the Dover reprints are excellent and very
> reasonably priced. I don't know if I have ever been disappointed by
> the quality of a Dover chess book, although admittedly I have read only
> a fraction of them.

A fraction of the catalog, or a fraction of each book? :-)

--Harold Buck

"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson

Chess One

2005-10-08, 7:32 pm

<Spamscone@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1128772431.117929.52860@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

quote:

>
> Chess One wrote:

Our hysterian has had a go at being serious - and uh, despite his
magnificent English can't answer a single question on-topic. I welcome
anyone who actually would like to have a go at this subject, because...

Frankly, its not use pissing and moaning next month that no one listens to
chess players, if they have nothing to say for themselves. And chess
journalism sites do have an effect on both chess politicos, and chess
organisers, book publishers, etc.
[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> A great many people know GMs Phil. Unlike you we don't talk about it
> constantly in an attempt to appear important.

It is [laugh] his own challenge #1 about me knowing GMs which caused me to
write that yes, I know some! Which brings on his response #2 - that, is in
his own words I, "talk... constantly in an attempt to appear important".

quote:

> now we got 'relentlessly downmarket' whatever that
>
> The English meaning seems clear enough. Sorry I couldn't write it in
> British for you.

He could try and write in any language he could manage to explain himself
in. What the hell does he mean after 2 attempts?

Lower-rated, or what??? What does 'down-market' mean, and why does he raise
the question - what's the issue? Let's see if he can actually write
something in English that is cogent and on-topic, and even serious.

quote:

>
> Could you name some of the publications who allegedly have "rejected"
> my work?

I could not possible name them all, but I certainly know one. But this is a
diversion to his previously questioned knowledge of "who writes an
editorial"?

quote:

>
> What an outright lie, as anyone who checks at the USCF website will
> see.

I am so sorry! I thought really, that Brennen's OTB rating was 13xx, and as
high as 1500 in correspondance. My mistake.

quote:

>And it's amazing rating snobbery coming from someone who
> continually lies about having a 2450 rating in the past!

Actually, it is Mr. Brennen who continually brings that up - and that's no
lie.

quote:

> This is certainly downmarket from addressing Master,
>
> Innes, of course, refuses to address the "flight from quality" of
> Chessvile.

Yes he does, since he has never admitted that it exists - in fact the
opposite! I know it is a deadly taboo to mention top players or their
opinions [presumably because we are all jealous] so shall I name one or
not? - the one who wrote yesterday about the level he pitched his books at -
not more than about 2100 he said - this guy was a W Ch candidate.

I should also like to mention that Susan Polgar's column is a substantial
qualitative improvement of Chessville's offerings, and indeed for all chess
publishing in the USA on the topic of scholastic chess.

Phil Innes

parrthenon@cs.com

2005-10-08, 7:32 pm

YES, IT'S STILL IN PRINT

<Here I can agree with Mr. Parr on something. Larry Evans "New Ideas
In
Chess" is indeed an excellent book. I learned a lot from this book in
my first year as an OTB player.> Geof Strayer

Nearly 70 Dover chess classics including New Ideas In Chess are carried
by Pein's London Chess Centre, the bid turned down by the board turned
when they outsourced B&E.

It was clear that there was no level playing field at the ChessCafe
bulletin board when Edward Winter launched his vicious attacks against
GM Evans and GM Ray Keene. Hanon Russell, who publishes some of Mr.
Winter's books, never forgave me for pointing out on rgcp that he
suppressed comments favorable to Evans and Keene during that dispute.

The bias is visible to all except NM Taylor Kingston who works with the
Messrs. Winter and Russell on various projects.

parrthenon@cs.com

2005-10-08, 7:32 pm

PEOPLE IN GLASS HOUSES

NM Taylor Kingston has refused even to entertain the possibility that
the first edition of The Oxford Companion To Chess by Hooper & Whyld
(which he doesn't have) blacked out some facts that were embarrassing
to the Soviets at the time it was published. Yet even Edward Winter, NM
Kingston's hero, spoke of Ken Whyld's "propensity for distortion and
untruth."

In rec.games.chess.misc on August 4, 2003, I posted the following item
in a thread about Errors in Winter's New Book.

People in Glass Houses

"I'm not convinced that Winter specifically targets so-called 'hacks.'
I
suspect he would not hesitate to target Hilbert or Nunn, if he could
only find one misspelled word, one erroneous diagram. He seems to be
tickled-pink to have uncovered even the smallest spelling error, no
matter how trivial. He revels in correcting wrong dates.... -- Mr.
nomorechess (Greg Kennedy)

Edward Winter has an excellent library and an inkwell filled with bile.
It's
not sufficient for him to point out trivial errors in the work of his
betters,
he then engages in character assassination in order to make his enemies
look bad.

In A CHESS OMNIBUS, for example, he says that Kenneth Whyld, co-author
of THE OXFORD COMPANION TO CHESS, has a "propensity for distortion and
untruth" (page 308).

Another favorite target is GM Raymond Keene. No error is too trivial or
too boring. For example, on page 140 Mr. Winter notes:

"G.A. MacDonnell is not to be confused with A. McDonnell, affirmed
Raymond Keene on page 139 of THE COMPLETE BOOK OF GAMBITS (a steal at
=8324.50), yet Mr. Keene twice misspelt G.A. MacDonnell's name as
'McDonnell' on that same page."

Does Mr. Winter make the same kind of error that he delights in finding
in others?

In the general index on page 463, two entries for Isaac Leopold Rice of
Rice Gambit fame are wrong. The Rice on page 210 is none other than
William Bayard Rice; and the Rice on page 332 is none other than John
M=2E Rice.

Too trivial to mention? Of course. But people in glass houses....

cynic

2005-10-08, 7:32 pm

* The bias is visible to all except NM Taylor Kingston who works with
the
Messrs. Winter and Russell on various projects. * Parrthenon

To coin a phrase...

There are none so blind as those who are paid not to see.

Taylor Kingston

2005-10-08, 7:32 pm

parrthenon@cs.com wrote:

quote:

> Does Mr. Winter make the same kind of error that he delights in finding
> in others?
> In the general index on page 463, two entries for Isaac Leopold Rice of
> Rice Gambit fame are wrong. The Rice on page 210 is none other than
> William Bayard Rice; and the Rice on page 332 is none other than John
> M. Rice.

True, those index entries in "A Chess Omnibus" are incorrect. And if
you point this out to Mr. Winter, he will graciously thank you, and
very likely publish the correction.
In contrast, Keene and Schiller, whose level of error is much higher,
will in similar situations very likely make no correction, or claim you
are "taking things out of context" or some such nonsense, or even claim
you are wrong to say that Isaac L. Rice did not exist, when of course
you said no such thing. A prime example of such behavior is described
here: http://www.chesshistory.com/winter/extra/schiller.html).
Hmmm ... come to think of it, these Keene/Schiller methods sound very
much like those of one Larry Parr.

quote:

> Too trivial to mention? Of course. But people in glass houses....

Indeed, Larry. Heed well your own advice.

Matt Nemmers

2005-10-08, 7:32 pm

<Equinorm@AOL.com> wrote in message
news:1128754294.957346.276400@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...

quote:

> Parrthenon said:
>
>
> Here I can agree with Mr. Parr on something. Larry Evans "New Ideas In
> Chess" is indeed an excellent book. I learned a lot from this book in
> my first year as an OTB player.

I agree. As are both volumes of the Parr/Alburt series "Secrets of the
Russian Grandmasters." I learned a lot from these books when I first
started playing and still loan my copies of them to beginners looking for a
book to start out with. The second volume is also an especially good
"shitter book." The good kind.

Chess One

2005-10-08, 7:32 pm

"Taylor Kingston" <tkingston@chittenden.com> wrote in message
news:1128787968.677796.267220@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

quote:

>
> parrthenon@cs.com wrote:
>
> True, those index entries in "A Chess Omnibus" are incorrect. And if
> you point this out to Mr. Winter, he will graciously thank you, and
> very likely publish the correction.

These are fair points Taylor, but it is really the publisher who has to
issue the corrections, since a word here will push a word there onto another
page - then the index may need to be changed too, and all these things
collated toward the next edition.

Consider the mechanism of reporting the issue to the publisher, if the
publisher can be found [since e-mail addresses in books are not yet common
and are uncertainly forward to right department in big companies, and if the
message survives intact, and if it is checked and approved with the author,
then recorded as a correction with the publisher along with all other
corrections. 3 bad commas just might not make it! Nor one their for there or
they're or even thair!

I just reviewed a title whose blurb is profoundly out of sympathy with the
introduction, to the extent that the blurb uses "comprehensive" while the
poor author himself modestly writes of a "sketch". There were actually 2
such clenches on the back cover.

To coin another phrase, "There are not many paid to see what is, er, so
blindly..."

If you guys can make a better joke, or even complete mine, especially at
some publisher's expense, you need not praise...

If you really want to have a go at the book biz, consider readers and
reviewers. I have a small collection of chess reviews which conclusively
prove to me that the reviewer didn't crack the cover, and may not even have
looked at the back cover, a few reviews use language remarkably similar
[lol] to the publisher's own promo material, or, in the giveaway same words,
despise the promo material instead of the book

quote:

> In contrast, Keene and Schiller, whose level of error is much higher,
> will in similar situations very likely make no correction, or claim you

This conversation has some unwonted amount of passion about typos! Let us at
least lay some of this onto the people who do the typesetting, and allow the
author who has read his bloody book 20 times already, the excuse that he is
not primarily a proof-reader.

These other points launch into a different sort of error:-

quote:

> are "taking things out of context" or some such nonsense, or even claim
> you are wrong to say that Isaac L. Rice did not exist, when of course
> you said no such thing. A prime example of such behavior is described
> here: http://www.chesshistory.com/winter/extra/schiller.html).
> Hmmm ... come to think of it, these Keene/Schiller methods sound very
> much like those of one Larry Parr.
>
>
> Indeed, Larry. Heed well your own advice.

Roll-over Wm Caxton. I personally can't spell worth a shirt, and have some
messed up nerves in my left hand because of a cut [do not cut your Saxon
unless properly attired!] so click through Microsoft's spell checker, often
lazily, until rereading the thing on paper wonder why I ever wrote about
Mark Tasmania?

But will all admit that they make mistakes, that authors ALL make mistakes,
that author's are very pissy about them being pointed out, that typesetters
and proof-readers might know diddly about chess, and sometimes it rains all
day?!

It is not quite fair to lump all people together under one standard - and I
note that Mr. Winter has high standards - for other people too, and while I
particularly liked the list of as yet unwritten chess texts he proposed and
wrote in his column at chesscafe [in the good-old days], I notice that some
years later he hasn't written any of those titles himself.

Somewhere between getting the blasted mss off your desk after 12 months, and
the scrupulously self-reviewed work which is never finished, seems to lie
some sensible middle ground that could still be attained even in a specialty
market like chess books.

Cordially, Phil Innes

PS: the spell checker does not acknowledge "pissy" as a word, and wanted to
turn Caxton inton claxon. It [laugh] also doesn't know diddly

Chess One

2005-10-08, 7:32 pm

"Matt Nemmers" <mattnemmers@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:3zS1f.1754$dB4.1150@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...

quote:

> <Equinorm@AOL.com> wrote in message
> news:1128754294.957346.276400@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>
> I agree. As are both volumes of the Parr/Alburt series "Secrets of the
> Russian Grandmasters."

I actually don't like those books. Ha! Precious few bloody secrets.

quote:

> I learned a lot from these books when I first started playing and still
> loan my copies of them to beginners looking for a book to start out with.
> The second volume is also an especially good "shitter book." The good
> kind.

Laugh - Almost any book is good in there, such a recommendation - but its
true, you can learn from all these high level games since they are rarely
spoiled by someone losing - and its the winning that's the thing.

Phil

LSD

2005-10-08, 7:32 pm

"Matt Nemmers" <mattnemmers@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:3zS1f.1754$dB4.1150@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...

quote:

> <Equinorm@AOL.com> wrote in message
> news:1128754294.957346.276400@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>
> I agree. As are both volumes of the Parr/Alburt series "Secrets of the
> Russian Grandmasters." I learned a lot from these books when I first
> started playing and still loan my copies of them to beginners

Including the copy you admit to handling while in the bathroom on the
toilet? You're a good guy. ;-)

quote:

> looking for a book to start out with. The second volume is also an
> especially good "shitter book." The good kind.
>

Louis Blair

2005-10-08, 7:32 pm

Larry Parr wrote (7 Oct 2005 17:22:48 -0700):

quote:

> The following post appeared here on September 12
> under the heading of "Misleading Book Titles."
> ...
> ... Taylor Kingston assures us there is no bias
> at the Censored Cafe, ...

_
The post in question was by Larry Parr himself.
(12 Sep 2005 08:39:19 -0700) Larry Parr fails
to mention that his post was answered with:
_
"No, Larry, I said that reviewers at ChessCafe.com
were left free to judge books honestly, without
interference. This was to contradict your malodorous
and completely baseless lie that ChessCafe reviews
of Keene and/or Schiller books had predestined verdicts.
Hanon Russell may well prefer not to carry their books
on the catalog. ..." - Taylor Kingston (12 Sep 2005
09:12:52 -0700)
_
Larry Parr ignored the correction and 18 days later
we saw:
_
"IIn previous threads the bias at ChessCafe was
denied by NM Taylor Kingston ..." - Larry Parr
(30 Sep 2005 06:07:05 -0700)
_
In less than ten hours, I posted a reminder of
Taylor Kingston's correction. I also wondered:
_
"what is going to happen now? Will Larry
Parr let another eighteen days go by and
make his claim again 'without a shred of
evidence'?"
_
So, my speculation was wrong. It did not take
18 days. It took only about seven and a half
more days for Larry Parr to decide to post his
claim about Taylor Kingston again "without a
shred of evidence".
_
Commenting on someone else in another
subject, Larry Parr once wrote:
_
"The tactic is to keep repeating the
same charge ... over and over again,
in the hope that mud will stick."
- Larry Parr (22 Sep 2005 07:23:09 -0700)
_
I asked if Larry Parr was expecting us to believe
that he himself would not use this tactic? I saw
no answer.

Louis Blair

2005-10-08, 7:32 pm

Larry Parr (posting-host=207.200.116.66)
wrote (8 Oct 2005 07:51:56 -0700):

quote:

> The bias is visible to all except NM Taylor Kingston ...

_
"Taylor Kingston assures us there is no bias
at the Censored Cafe ..." - Larry Parr (12 Sep 2005
08:39:19 -0700)
_
"No, Larry, I said that reviewers at ChessCafe.com
were left free to judge books honestly, without
interference. This was to contradict your malodorous
and completely baseless lie that ChessCafe reviews
of Keene and/or Schiller books had predestined verdicts.
Hanon Russell may well prefer not to carry their books
on the catalog. ..." - Taylor Kingston (12 Sep 2005
09:12:52 -0700)
_
Larry Parr ignored the correction and 18 days later
we saw:
_
"IIn previous threads the bias at ChessCafe was
denied by NM Taylor Kingston ..." - Larry Parr
(30 Sep 2005 06:07:05 -0700)
_
In less than ten hours, I posted a reminder of
Taylor Kingston's correction. I also wondered:
_
"what is going to happen now? Will Larry
Parr let another eighteen days go by and
make his claim again 'without a shred of
evidence'?"
_
So, my speculation was wrong. It did not take
18 days. It took only about seven and a half
more days for Larry Parr to decide to post his
claim about Taylor Kingston again "without a
shred of evidence".
_
Commenting on someone else in another
subject, Larry Parr once wrote:
_
"The tactic is to keep repeating the
same charge ... over and over again,
in the hope that mud will stick."
- Larry Parr (22 Sep 2005 07:23:09 -0700)
_
I asked if Larry Parr was expecting us to believe
that he himself would not use this tactic? I saw
no answer.

Louis Blair

2005-10-08, 7:32 pm

Larry Parr (posting-host=207.200.116.66)
wrote (8 Oct 2005 07:51:56 -0700):

quote:

> The bias is visible to all except NM Taylor Kingston
> who works with the Messrs. Winter and Russell on
> various projects.

_
cynic (posting-host=207.200.116.66):
wrote (8 Oct 2005 09:03:55 -0700):

quote:

> To coin a phrase...
>_
> There are none so blind as those who are paid not
> to see.

_
"Taylor Kingston assures us there is no bias
at the Censored Cafe ..." - Larry Parr (12 Sep 2005
08:39:19 -0700)
_
"No, Larry, I said that reviewers at ChessCafe.com
were left free to judge books honestly, without
interference. This was to contradict your malodorous
and completely baseless lie that ChessCafe reviews
of Keene and/or Schiller books had predestined verdicts.
Hanon Russell may well prefer not to carry their books
on the catalog. ..." - Taylor Kingston (12 Sep 2005
09:12:52 -0700)
_
Larry Parr ignored the correction and 18 days later
we saw:
_
"IIn previous threads the bias at ChessCafe was
denied by NM Taylor Kingston ..." - Larry Parr
(30 Sep 2005 06:07:05 -0700)
_
In less than ten hours, I posted a reminder of
Taylor Kingston's correction. I saw no response.
Now, eight days later, we are seeing Larry Parr's
charge yet again. Does "cynic" have anything
to say about Larry Parr repeating the same charge
over and over again without a shred of evidence,
or is the behavior of "cynic" going to be like that
of Larry Parr ignoring the issue?

Louis Blair

2005-10-08, 11:31 pm

Mike Murray wrote (Fri, 07 Oct 2005 15:02:59 -0700):

quote:

> Feel free to pull some more books out of your mental
> hat.

_
Offhand, the books that strike me as closest to Eric
Schiller in terms of subject matter, level, age, and
price are those in the "Starting Out" series published
by Everyman Chess.
_
By the way, are these numbers coming from a site
that any of us can visit? If so, what is it?

Mike Murray

2005-10-08, 11:31 pm

On 8 Oct 2005 16:36:05 -0700, "Louis Blair" <lblai@blackburn.edu>
wrote:

quote:

>Mike Murray wrote (Fri, 07 Oct 2005 15:02:59 -0700):
>
>
>_
>Offhand, the books that strike me as closest to Eric
>Schiller in terms of subject matter, level, age, and
>price are those in the "Starting Out" series published
>by Everyman Chess.
>_
>By the way, are these numbers coming from a site
>that any of us can visit? If so, what is it?

www.barnesandnoble.com

Look up a book and if they stock it, they usually give its sales
position relative to all other books they stock.

Of course, for classics (e.g., Fine's "Ideas Behind the Chess
Openings") with many years of sales before B&N started keeping these
records, the number shown aren't too meaningful.

Matt Nemmers

2005-10-08, 11:31 pm

"Louis Blair" <lblai@blackburn.edu> wrote in message
news:1128811856.477187.7480@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

quote:

> Commenting on someone else in another
> subject, Larry Parr once wrote:
> _
> "The tactic is to keep repeating the
> same charge ... over and over again,
> in the hope that mud will stick."
> - Larry Parr (22 Sep 2005 07:23:09 -0700)
> _
> I asked if Larry Parr was expecting us to believe
> that he himself would not use this tactic? I saw
> no answer.

Don't hold your breath either, Louis. It wouldn't be convenient for Larry
to answer that.

cynic

2005-10-09, 7:32 pm

*Edward Winter has an excellent library and an inkwell filled with
bile. It's not sufficient for him to point out trivial errors in the
work of his betters, he then engages in character assassination in
order to make his enemies look bad. In A CHESS OMNIBUS, for example, he
says that Kenneth Whyld, co-author of THE OXFORD COMPANION TO CHESS,
has a "propensity for distortion and untruth" (page 308).* Parrthenon

Taylor Kingston snipped this in his reply. Does he have any comment
on Edward Winter's defamation of Ken Whyld whom Kingston praised so
highly when discussing the Oxford Companion?

Taylor Kingston

2005-10-09, 7:32 pm

Spamscone@yahoo.com wrote:

quote:

> I'm not surprised that Chessvile features books by Schiller; the
> website is relentlessly downmarket in its approach. Publishing cranks
> like Innes and James Schroeder and featuring stealth advertising for
> chess politicians as 'artic