Chess politics - Women in Chess

Author

Women in Chess

Chess One

2005-01-09, 9:45 am

> There is a double standard.

quote:

>
> Women are entitled to play the "I'm a woman and I have my special needs"
> card when it suit them. When it doesn't, they can play the Feminist "We're
> completely equal to men" card.
>
> Being able to elect either is not fair or moral.

I think you are correct, but there is a double standard in society which is
also not fair.

From an individual basis we cannot solve the fairness issue, but we can
recognise that it exists when the issue emerges to confront us in public.

I know several dozen business women and all of them say that they have
encountered glass-ceilings, even though the companies they work for have
policies which declare otherwise. This is not only unfair, it reveals a lie
that we tell ourselves about what constitutes fairness.

This is literally 'moral', which is a word having nothing to do with
'ethics', but from [L.] 'mores'; meaning 'custom'. In other words, not what
we say we do [ethics], but how we actually are [morals].

What sensible women have said of their own abilities and ambitions in life
is that they are "equal, but different", rather than "completely equal",
which contains an innate assumption that women have the same qualities as
men. It stresses that they have, inasmuch as it makes any sense to speak of
characteristics of groups of people, differing qualities, but qualities
which are also valuable to any enterprise.

It is a telling statistic, for example, that women are greater entrepreneurs
in small businesses [start more of them than men, and employ more people in
them than do men] and suffer significantly less bankruptcies in the US.

Men, OTOH, have achieve greater things in business, but signally also cause
more disasters for employees and share-holders alike.

It will be interesting to see over the coming decade if the 'capability
bubble' which was only recently burst by the Polgar sisters [and a nod here
to V. Menchik 50 years earlier], will significantly encourage women into the
top spots in chess, and - a fun bet - I like to ask the following question:-

"How long until we get a Chinese World Chess Champion? And what effect
will she have on chess development in a country which contains 40% of the
World's population?"

It took 80 years for women to compete equally in the 100 yards sprint, where
men improved their time from about 13 seconds in 1910 to about 10.5 seconds
in 1990 - and where women improved their time over the same period from 20+
seconds also to 10.5! The top women sprinters will now beat 99.9r% of male
athletes in a physical competitive activity. It is significant to note that
these athletes say that it is the coordination of muscle development to
body-weight, and //rhythmic integration// of power which enable them to
compete to the same level of distinction as men; a means of performance
quite different than occurs in male athletes.

The emergence of women into a realm previously completely dominated by men
follows the same sociological pattern to-date in chess as in every other
arena where this has occurred [what exceptions are there?], and the only
real question is //when// sufficient numbers of them can achieve, perpetuate
and supercede the first pioneers in high chess achievement, thus bringing
down the artifice of men's and women's events.

Phil Innes

Harold Buck

2005-01-09, 9:45 am

In article <g8aEd.1330$7b.163@trndny02>,
"Chess One" <innes8@verizon.net> wrote:

quote:

> It took 80 years for women to compete equally in the 100 yards sprint, where
> men improved their time from about 13 seconds in 1910 to about 10.5 seconds
> in 1990 - and where women improved their time over the same period from 20+
> seconds also to 10.5!

Huh? The men's 100 METER--which is longer than 100 yards--record was
under 10 seconds by 1988.

--Harold Buck

"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson

David Pollitt

2005-01-09, 9:45 am

"Chess One" (innes8@verizon.net) writes:

quote:

[...][vbcol=seagreen]
> It will be interesting to see over the coming decade if the 'capability
> bubble' which was only recently burst by the Polgar sisters [and a nod here
> to V. Menchik 50 years earlier], will significantly encourage women into the
> top spots in chess, and - a fun bet - I like to ask the following question:-
>
> "How long until we get a Chinese World Chess Champion? And what effect
> will she have on chess development in a country which contains 40% of the
> World's population?"

(1.3 / 6.2) * 100% = 20.97% <> 40%

quote:

> It took 80 years for women to compete equally in the 100 yards sprint, where
> men improved their time from about 13 seconds in 1910 to about 10.5 seconds
> in 1990 - and where women improved their time over the same period from 20+
> seconds also to 10.5! The top women sprinters will now beat 99.9r% of male
> athletes in a physical competitive activity. It is significant to note that

[...]

David Richerby

2005-01-10, 6:45 am

Newsgroups: rec.games.chess.politics,rec.games.chess.misc
Subject: Re: Women in Chess
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References: <g8aEd.1330$7b.163@trndny02>
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Chess One <innes8@verizon.net> wrote:

quote:

> I like to ask the following question:-
>
> "How long until we get a Chinese World Chess Champion? And what effect
> will she have on chess development in a country which contains 40% of
> the World's population?"

The population of China is about 1.3 billion, growing at a rate of 0.57%
per year; the world's population is about 6.4 billion, growing at 1.14%
per year. So China represents only slightly over 20% of the world's
population and the proportion is slowly decreasing.

[Data from http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/ ]

quote:

> It took 80 years for women to compete equally in the 100 yards sprint,
> where men improved their time from about 13 seconds in 1910 to about
> 10.5 seconds in 1990 - and where women improved their time over the same
> period from 20+ seconds also to 10.5!

I'm not sure that anything in that paragraph is actually true.

In 1912, the men's 100m (about 110 yards) record was 10.6s (Donald
Lippincott, USA), it broke 10s in 1968 (James Hines, USA, 9.95s) and is
currently 9.78s (Tim Montgomery, USA). In contrast, the women's record in
1924 was 11.7s (Stanislawa Walasiewicz, Pol); by 1968, it had dropped to
11.0s (Wymonia Tyus, USA) and, since 1988, it has been 10.49s (Florence
Griffith-Joyner who had lowered the record from 10.76s to 10.61s the
previous day). The men's record has been under 10.49s since 1920.

[Data from http://www.iaaf.org/statistics/records/ and
http://www.athletix.org ]

Dave.

--
David Richerby Beefy Postman (TM): it's like a man
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ who delivers the mail that's made from
a cow!

David Richerby

2005-01-10, 6:45 am

Chess One <innes8@verizon.net> wrote:

quote:

> I like to ask the following question:-
>
> "How long until we get a Chinese World Chess Champion? And what effect
> will she have on chess development in a country which contains 40% of
> the World's population?"

quote:

> It took 80 years for women to compete equally in the 100 yards sprint,
> where men improved their time from about 13 seconds in 1910 to about
> 10.5 seconds in 1990 - and where women improved their time over the same
> period from 20+ seconds also to 10.5!

I'm not sure that anything in that paragraph is actually true.

In 1912, the men's 100m (about 110 yards) record was 10.6s (Donald
Lippincott, USA), it broke 10s in 1968 (James Hines, USA, 9.95s) and is
currently 9.78s (Tim Montgomery, USA). In contrast, the women's record in
1924 was 11.7s (Stanislawa Walasiewicz, Pol); by 1968, it had dropped to
11.0s (Wymonia Tyus, USA) and, since 1988, it has been 10.49s (Florence
Griffith-Joyner who had lowered the record from 10.76s to 10.61s the
previous day). The men's record has been under 10.49s since 1920.

[Data from http://www.iaaf.org/statistics/records/ and
http://www.athletix.org ]

Dave.

--
David Richerby Fluorescent Indelible Atom Bomb (TM):
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ it's like a weapon of mass destruction
but it can't be erased and it'll hurt
your eyes!

John Rowland

2005-01-10, 6:45 am

"Chess One" <innes8@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:g8aEd.1330$7b.163@trndny02...

quote:

>
> It is a telling statistic, for example, that women are
> greater entrepreneurs in small businesses [start more
> of them than men, and employ more people in them than
> do men] and suffer significantly less bankruptcies in the US.

I've heard that the US Federal Government has a rule that 50% of any budget
has to be spent on companies run by women, and this allows women to start
companies which produce inferior products at inflated prices and still win
contracts and stay afloat.

--
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acr...069/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes

Chess One

2005-01-10, 6:45 am

"John Rowland" <johnr@journeyflow.spamspam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:crtneb$ck0$1$830fa7a5@news.demon.co.uk...

quote:

> "Chess One" <innes8@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:g8aEd.1330$7b.163@trndny02...

I wonder what the following paragraph has to do with the one I wrote? I am
stating that SMALL businesses are better run by women who start more of them
than men.
[vbcol=seagreen]
> I've heard that the US Federal Government has a rule that 50% of any
> budget
> has to be spent on companies run by women, and this allows women to start
> companies which produce inferior products at inflated prices and still win
> contracts and stay afloat.

This is hardly worth a reply; why doesn't the writer say where he has
'heard' any of this, or illustrate his slight about inferior & more
expensive products, and so on?

I could say that I have heard inferior reports about women in business, no?

Phil Innes

quote:

> --
> John Rowland - Spamtrapped
> Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
> http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acr...069/tpftla.html
> A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
> That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
> It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes
>
>

Chess One

2005-01-10, 6:45 am

quote:

> I'm not sure that anything in that paragraph is actually true.

David, I am happy to be corrected, if what you say is true then...

quote:

> In 1912, the men's 100m (about 110 yards) record was 10.6s (Donald
> Lippincott, USA), it broke 10s in 1968 (James Hines, USA, 9.95s) and is
> currently 9.78s (Tim Montgomery, USA). In contrast, the women's record in
> 1924 was 11.7s (Stanislawa Walasiewicz, Pol); by 1968, it had dropped to
> 11.0s (Wymonia Tyus, USA) and, since 1988, it has been 10.49s (Florence
> Griffith-Joyner who had lowered the record from 10.76s to 10.61s the
> previous day). The men's record has been under 10.49s since 1920.

Joyner is now faster than men were in 1912. My intent was to talk about the
frailty myth in chess, business and all else.

Can you, by the same means, take the ELOs of current top women players and
compare them with male players of the past, and we could find a zone of
interception. When would it be, the 50's or 60s? or 70s?

Phil Innes

quote:

> [Data from http://www.iaaf.org/statistics/records/ and
> http://www.athletix.org ]
>
>
> Dave.
>
> --
> David Richerby Beefy Postman (TM): it's like a
> man
> www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ who delivers the mail that's made
> from
> a cow!

David Richerby

2005-01-10, 5:46 pm

Chess One <innes8@verizon.net> wrote:

quote:

> Can you, by the same means, take the ELOs of current top women players
> and compare them with male players of the past, and we could find a zone
> of interception.

Well, no, because FIDE has only been producing Elo ratings since 1970 and
the mean rating increases over time. Also, it would make a significant
difference whether one counted the top women's rating (Judith Polgar's
2728) or the current second highest (Zsuzsa Polgar's 2577). It's an
interesting question to compare the strength of the top women today with
the top men of the past but I don't think the data exist to do this
properly.

Dave.

--
David Richerby Solar-Powered Spoon (TM): it's like a
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ piece of cutlery but it doesn't work
in the dark!

Fifiela

2005-01-10, 5:46 pm

<<<I wonder what the following paragraph has to do with the one I wrote? I am
stating that SMALL businesses are better run by women who start more of them
than men.>>>

Women and minority small business's are favored for federal agencies for
federal contracts by Imperial Edict. It is much easier for these favored
groups to get a SBA loan.

I know of a woman who had nothing to do with her husbands plumbing business who
was the "offical owner" for SBA and government contracts. I know of another
local manufacturer who recieved a good no bid contract with the National Park
Service as an Hispanic business owner.

Everybody LOVES their Little Privileges. Everybody wants to be in a Protected
Guild.

chapman Billy

2005-01-10, 5:46 pm

John Rowland wrote:

quote:

> "Chess One" <innes8@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:g8aEd.1330$7b.163@trndny02...
>
>
> start
> companies which produce inferior products at inflated prices and still win
> contracts and stay afloat.

Reminds me of the railways in the UK. :-)

quote:

> Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001

Bring back Yerkes, all is forgiven.

Regards,

Simon.

--
Excise Burns and his dates to email me.

Chess One

2005-01-11, 12:45 am

quote:

> Well, no, because FIDE has only been producing Elo ratings since 1970 and
> the mean rating increases over time. Also, it would make a significant
> difference whether one counted the top women's rating (Judith Polgar's
> 2728) or the current second highest (Zsuzsa Polgar's 2577). It's an
> interesting question to compare the strength of the top women today with
> the top men of the past but I don't think the data exist to do this
> properly.

Thanks David,

I also distrust retrospective 'analysis' of ELO, having had a previous go at
this thorny subject in respect of Vera Menchik who beat Euwe and Reschevsky
when they were both world champion contenders in the '40s. One's answers
pleased no one.

Cordially, Phil

quote:

> Dave.
>
> --
> David Richerby Solar-Powered Spoon (TM): it's
> like a
> www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ piece of cutlery but it doesn't
> work
> in the dark!

Chess One

2005-01-11, 9:45 am

>> --------

quote:

>
> I think you are correct, but there is a double standard in society which
> is also not fair.

I thought it would be worth collecting 'attitudes' in public newsgroups for
a few days before continuing this subject - remarkably, many of them in 2005
are similar to what follows - and which I note are sociological factors of
history which pertain to segregation and women in sports. In contrast to the
usual 'level playing-field' ideas of opportunity which is the received
version, here is an actual record from the past century in mostly
Olympic-level athletics.

In 1924 the International Amateur Athletic Federation (IAAF) denied women
the right to compete in the Games. But the handwriting was on the wall:
women had started to rebel. Following Mme. Milliat's success in organizing a
big competition for women, other, similar events were created, such as the
International and British Games. Suddenly, sensing that women were going to
up and chart their own course, the IAAF agreed in 1927 to "organize" women
athletes and recommended that the next Games include a generous five female
events. Mme. Milliat protested that in no way could this be considered a
full program. British women athletes, feeling more independent now that
they'd put on their own Games, boycotted the restrictive 1928 Olympics.
Clearly, mounting political pressure against the monolithically male IOC was
causing some of its power to erode.

In 1930 the Olympic Congress reversed the committee's decision and voted to
let women back in. The effects of athletic competition on women's health
continued to be made into a big issue. Endurance events in particular were
considered beyond women. In the 1932 Games in Los Angeles, the Olympic
committee finally decided to include a few track-and-field events for women.

A breakthrough female athlete was America's Mildred "Babe" Didrikson, who
won gold medals in the javelin and 80-meter hurdles and a silver medal in
the high jump. But after the women's 800-meter race, a rumor circulated that
some of the runners had come across the finish line staggering from fatigue,
"pale" and "exhausted." Other racers couldn't even get to the finish, it was
said.

We're talking about a race of less than 900 yards! The rumor about the fated
800 quickly became fact, and world opinion calcified. "The cinder track was
strewn with wretched damsels in agonized distress,"

The New York Times proclaimed. The Daily Mail of London quoted a doctor who
insisted that "women who took part in the 800 meter race and other such
feats of endurance would become too old too soon."

Even Knute Rockne, the famous Notre Dame football coach, felt he had to
chime in, calling the women's race "a pitiful spectacle."

The medical opinion that women were frail still held the day. The 800-meter
races were kept off-limits to women for another thirty-two years!

When sport historian Lynne Emery re-examined the data on that controversial
800-meter race in 1932, she found that in fact all nine finalists had
completed it. Olympic officials had never had a good reason to eliminate the
event. By the time Emery's historical revision was published, however, the
damage had long been

done.

Phil Innes

Rob

2005-01-12, 12:45 am

Chess One wrote:

quote:

needs"[vbcol=seagreen]
Feminist[vbcol=seagreen]
which[vbcol=seagreen]
>
>
> I thought it would be worth collecting 'attitudes' in public

newsgroups for

quote:

> a few days before continuing this subject - remarkably, many of them

in 2005

quote:

> are similar to what follows - and which I note are sociological

factors of

quote:

> history which pertain to segregation and women in sports. In contrast

to the

quote:

> usual 'level playing-field' ideas of opportunity which is the

received

quote:

> version, here is an actual record from the past century in mostly
> Olympic-level athletics.
>
> In 1924 the International Amateur Athletic Federation (IAAF) denied

women

quote:

> the right to compete in the Games. But the handwriting was on the

wall:

quote:

> women had started to rebel. Following Mme. Milliat's success in

organizing a

quote:

> big competition for women, other, similar events were created, such

as the

quote:

> International and British Games. Suddenly, sensing that women were

going to

quote:

> up and chart their own course, the IAAF agreed in 1927 to "organize"

women

quote:

> athletes and recommended that the next Games include a generous five

female

quote:

> events. Mme. Milliat protested that in no way could this be

considered a

quote:

> full program. British women athletes, feeling more independent now

that

quote:

> they'd put on their own Games, boycotted the restrictive 1928

Olympics.

quote:

> Clearly, mounting political pressure against the monolithically male

IOC was

quote:

> causing some of its power to erode.
>
>
>
> In 1930 the Olympic Congress reversed the committee's decision and

voted to

quote:

> let women back in. The effects of athletic competition on women's

health

quote:

> continued to be made into a big issue. Endurance events in particular

were

quote:

> considered beyond women. In the 1932 Games in Los Angeles, the

Olympic

quote:

> committee finally decided to include a few track-and-field events for

women.

quote:

>
>
>
> A breakthrough female athlete was America's Mildred "Babe" Didrikson,

who

quote:

> won gold medals in the javelin and 80-meter hurdles and a silver

medal in

quote:

> the high jump. But after the women's 800-meter race, a rumor

circulated that

quote:

> some of the runners had come across the finish line staggering from

fatigue,

quote:

> "pale" and "exhausted." Other racers couldn't even get to the finish,

it was

quote:

> said.
>
>
>
> We're talking about a race of less than 900 yards! The rumor about

the fated

quote:

> 800 quickly became fact, and world opinion calcified. "The cinder

track was

quote:

> strewn with wretched damsels in agonized distress,"
>
>
>
> The New York Times proclaimed. The Daily Mail of London quoted a

doctor who

quote:

> insisted that "women who took part in the 800 meter race and other

such

quote:

> feats of endurance would become too old too soon."
>
>
>
> Even Knute Rockne, the famous Notre Dame football coach, felt he had

quote:

> chime in, calling the women's race "a pitiful spectacle."
>
>
>
> The medical opinion that women were frail still held the day. The

800-meter

quote:

> races were kept off-limits to women for another thirty-two years!
>
>
>
> When sport historian Lynne Emery re-examined the data on that

controversial

quote:

> 800-meter race in 1932, she found that in fact all nine finalists had

quote:

> completed it. Olympic officials had never had a good reason to

eliminate the

quote:

> event. By the time Emery's historical revision was published,

however, the

quote:

> damage had long been
>
> done.
>
>
>
> Phil Innes

Phil,
Exactly right. In fact, I think the times between todays mens and
womens runners are closer in time than todays mens times were to the
times of men fifty years ago. These are in contests of stregnth. I
think it will only be a short matter of time when the ranks of GM's
will be almost equally shared by both genders.
Kudos (corrected sp. LOL)
Rob

David Pollitt

2005-01-12, 6:46 am

"Chess One" (innes8@verizon.net) writes:

quote:

[...][vbcol=seagreen]
> It will be interesting to see over the coming decade if the 'capability
> bubble' which was only recently burst by the Polgar sisters [and a nod here
> to V. Menchik 50 years earlier], will significantly encourage women into the
> top spots in chess, and - a fun bet - I like to ask the following question:-
>
> "How long until we get a Chinese World Chess Champion? And what effect
> will she have on chess development in a country which contains 40% of the
> World's population?"

(1.3 / 6.2) * 100% = 20.97% <> 40%

quote:

> It took 80 years for women to compete equally in the 100 yards sprint, where
> men improved their time from about 13 seconds in 1910 to about 10.5 seconds
> in 1990 - and where women improved their time over the same period from 20+
> seconds also to 10.5! The top women sprinters will now beat 99.9r% of male
> athletes in a physical competitive activity. It is significant to note that

[...]

David Richerby

2005-01-12, 9:45 am

Chess One <innes8@verizon.net> wrote:

quote:

> I like to ask the following question:-
>
> "How long until we get a Chinese World Chess Champion? And what effect
> will she have on chess development in a country which contains 40% of
> the World's population?"

quote:

> It took 80 years for women to compete equally in the 100 yards sprint,
> where men improved their time from about 13 seconds in 1910 to about
> 10.5 seconds in 1990 - and where women improved their time over the same
> period from 20+ seconds also to 10.5!

I'm not sure that anything in that paragraph is actually true.

In 1912, the men's 100m (about 110 yards) record was 10.6s (Donald
Lippincott, USA), it broke 10s in 1968 (James Hines, USA, 9.95s) and is
currently 9.78s (Tim Montgomery, USA). In contrast, the women's record in
1924 was 11.7s (Stanislawa Walasiewicz, Pol); by 1968, it had dropped to
11.0s (Wymonia Tyus, USA) and, since 1988, it has been 10.49s (Florence
Griffith-Joyner who had lowered the record from 10.76s to 10.61s the
previous day). The men's record has been under 10.49s since 1920.

[Data from http://www.iaaf.org/statistics/records/ and
http://www.athletix.org ]

Dave.

--
David Richerby Fluorescent Indelible Atom Bomb (TM):
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ it's like a weapon of mass destruction
but it can't be erased and it'll hurt
your eyes!

Chess One

2005-01-12, 5:46 pm

"John Rowland" <johnr@journeyflow.spamspam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:crtneb$ck0$1$830fa7a5@news.demon.co.uk...

quote:

> "Chess One" <innes8@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:g8aEd.1330$7b.163@trndny02...

I wonder what the following paragraph has to do with the one I wrote? I am
stating that SMALL businesses are better run by women who start more of them
than men.
[vbcol=seagreen]
> I've heard that the US Federal Government has a rule that 50% of any
> budget
> has to be spent on companies run by women, and this allows women to start
> companies which produce inferior products at inflated prices and still win
> contracts and stay afloat.

quote:

> --
> John Rowland - Spamtrapped
> Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
> http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acr...069/tpftla.html
> A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
> That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
> It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes
>
>

Ray Gordon

2005-01-13, 12:45 am

I would imagine that a Judith Polgar from today will be viewed as many of
the near-champions from the past, like Nimzovich, Tarrash, Bogo, and the
like: great, but not quite great enough.

--
Ray Gordon, Author
http://www.cybersheet.com/easy.html
Seduction Made Easy. Get this book FREE when you buy participating
affiliated books!

http://www.cybersheet.com/library.html
The Seduction Library. Four free books to get you started on your quest to
get laid.

Don't buy anything from experts who won't debate on a free speech forum.
"David Richerby" <davidr@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote in message
news:khl*kzkEq@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk...

quote:

> Chess One <innes8@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> Well, no, because FIDE has only been producing Elo ratings since 1970 and
> the mean rating increases over time. Also, it would make a significant
> difference whether one counted the top women's rating (Judith Polgar's
> 2728) or the current second highest (Zsuzsa Polgar's 2577). It's an
> interesting question to compare the strength of the top women today with
> the top men of the past but I don't think the data exist to do this
> properly.
>
>
> Dave.
>
> --
> David Richerby Solar-Powered Spoon (TM): it's
> like a
> www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ piece of cutlery but it doesn't
> work
> in the dark!

Ray Gordon

2005-01-13, 12:45 am

>>> It is a telling statistic, for example, that women are

quote:

>
> I wonder what the following paragraph has to do with the one I wrote? I am
> stating that SMALL businesses are better run by women who start more of
> them than men.

The first poster is correct in that anything not based on merit will create
bloat, giving money and power to people who don't deserve it, but the same
could be said of anyone who gets any benefit. Set-asides are not the only
form of "corporate welfare."

As for the second poster, if women are succeeding in small business, the
most logical explanation is that they are facing discrimination in larger
companies, starting their own businesses to avoid it, and gaining ground
through the same superior skill that was rebuffed by what is now their
competition.

quote:

>
> This is hardly worth a reply; why doesn't the writer say where he has
> 'heard' any of this, or illustrate his slight about inferior & more
> expensive products, and so on?

We use the term "goals" rather than "quotas" and they say it's not a quota.
Visit the OFCCP website (division of the Dept. of Labor) and you'll see he's
not that far off.

quote:

> I could say that I have heard inferior reports about women in business,
> no?

I'm more concerned with a level playing field than with who wins.

chapman Billy

2005-01-13, 5:45 pm

John Rowland wrote:

quote:

> "Chess One" <innes8@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:g8aEd.1330$7b.163@trndny02...
>
>
> start
> companies which produce inferior products at inflated prices and still win
> contracts and stay afloat.

Reminds me of the railways in the UK. :-)

quote:

> Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001

Bring back Yerkes, all is forgiven.

Regards,

Simon.

--
Excise Burns and his dates to email me.

Andrew Bull

2005-01-13, 5:45 pm

Rob wrote in message
<1105505795.393987.255800@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>...

quote:

>Exactly right. In fact, I think the times between todays mens and
>womens runners are closer in time than todays mens times were to the
>times of men fifty years ago.

Going by world records, you're wrong for all distances shorter than the
marathon.
For quite a few distances, you'd be wrong if you'd said "100 years ago".

David Pollitt

2005-01-15, 12:46 am

"Chess One" (innes8@verizon.net) writes:

quote:

[...][vbcol=seagreen]
> It will be interesting to see over the coming decade if the 'capability
> bubble' which was only recently burst by the Polgar sisters [and a nod here
> to V. Menchik 50 years earlier], will significantly encourage women into the
> top spots in chess, and - a fun bet - I like to ask the following question:-
>
> "How long until we get a Chinese World Chess Champion? And what effect
> will she have on chess development in a country which contains 40% of the
> World's population?"

(1.3 / 6.2) * 100% = 20.97% <> 40%

quote:

> It took 80 years for women to compete equally in the 100 yards sprint, where
> men improved their time from about 13 seconds in 1910 to about 10.5 seconds
> in 1990 - and where women improved their time over the same period from 20+
> seconds also to 10.5! The top women sprinters will now beat 99.9r% of male
> athletes in a physical competitive activity. It is significant to note that

[...]

David Richerby

2005-01-15, 12:46 am

Chess One <innes8@verizon.net> wrote:

quote:

> I like to ask the following question:-
>
> "How long until we get a Chinese World Chess Champion? And what effect
> will she have on chess development in a country which contains 40% of
> the World's population?"

quote:

> It took 80 years for women to compete equally in the 100 yards sprint,
> where men improved their time from about 13 seconds in 1910 to about
> 10.5 seconds in 1990 - and where women improved their time over the same
> period from 20+ seconds also to 10.5!

I'm not sure that anything in that paragraph is actually true.

In 1912, the men's 100m (about 110 yards) record was 10.6s (Donald
Lippincott, USA), it broke 10s in 1968 (James Hines, USA, 9.95s) and is
currently 9.78s (Tim Montgomery, USA). In contrast, the women's record in
1924 was 11.7s (Stanislawa Walasiewicz, Pol); by 1968, it had dropped to
11.0s (Wymonia Tyus, USA) and, since 1988, it has been 10.49s (Florence
Griffith-Joyner who had lowered the record from 10.76s to 10.61s the
previous day). The men's record has been under 10.49s since 1920.

[Data from http://www.iaaf.org/statistics/records/ and
http://www.athletix.org ]

Dave.

--
David Richerby Fluorescent Indelible Atom Bomb (TM):
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ it's like a weapon of mass destruction
but it can't be erased and it'll hurt
your eyes!

John Rowland

2005-01-15, 6:47 am

"Chess One" <innes8@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:g8aEd.1330$7b.163@trndny02...

quote:

>
> It is a telling statistic, for example, that women are
> greater entrepreneurs in small businesses [start more
> of them than men, and employ more people in them than
> do men] and suffer significantly less bankruptcies in the US.

Ray Gordon

2005-01-15, 6:47 am

>>> It is a telling statistic, for example, that women are

quote:

>
> I wonder what the following paragraph has to do with the one I wrote? I am
> stating that SMALL businesses are better run by women who start more of
> them than men.

quote:

>
> This is hardly worth a reply; why doesn't the writer say where he has
> 'heard' any of this, or illustrate his slight about inferior & more
> expensive products, and so on?

We use the term "goals" rather than "quotas" and they say it's not a quota.
Visit the OFCCP website (division of the Dept. of Labor) and you'll see he's
not that far off.

quote:

> I could say that I have heard inferior reports about women in business,
> no?

I'm more concerned with a level playing field than with who wins.

Chess One

2005-01-15, 6:47 am

"John Rowland" <johnr@journeyflow.spamspam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:crtneb$ck0$1$830fa7a5@news.demon.co.uk...

quote:

> "Chess One" <innes8@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:g8aEd.1330$7b.163@trndny02...

I wonder what the following paragraph has to do with the one I wrote? I am
stating that SMALL businesses are better run by women who start more of them
than men.
[vbcol=seagreen]
> I've heard that the US Federal Government has a rule that 50% of any
> budget
> has to be spent on companies run by women, and this allows women to start
> companies which produce inferior products at inflated prices and still win
> contracts and stay afloat.

quote:

> --
> John Rowland - Spamtrapped
> Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
> http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acr...069/tpftla.html
> A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
> That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
> It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes
>
>

Chess One

2005-01-15, 6:47 am

quote:

> I'm not sure that anything in that paragraph is actually true.

David, I am happy to be corrected, if what you say is true then...

quote:

> In 1912, the men's 100m (about 110 yards) record was 10.6s (Donald
> Lippincott, USA), it broke 10s in 1968 (James Hines, USA, 9.95s) and is
> currently 9.78s (Tim Montgomery, USA). In contrast, the women's record in
> 1924 was 11.7s (Stanislawa Walasiewicz, Pol); by 1968, it had dropped to
> 11.0s (Wymonia Tyus, USA) and, since 1988, it has been 10.49s (Florence
> Griffith-Joyner who had lowered the record from 10.76s to 10.61s the
> previous day). The men's record has been under 10.49s since 1920.

quote:

> [Data from http://www.iaaf.org/statistics/records/ and
> http://www.athletix.org ]
>
>
> Dave.
>
> --
> David Richerby Beefy Postman (TM): it's like a
> man
> www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ who delivers the mail that's made
> from
> a cow!

David Richerby

2005-01-15, 6:47 am

Chess One <innes8@verizon.net> wrote:

quote:

> Can you, by the same means, take the ELOs of current top women players
> and compare them with male players of the past, and we could find a zone
> of interception.

Chess One

2005-01-15, 6:47 am

quote:

> Well, no, because FIDE has only been producing Elo ratings since 1970 and
> the mean rating increases over time. Also, it would make a significant
> difference whether one counted the top women's rating (Judith Polgar's
> 2728) or the current second highest (Zsuzsa Polgar's 2577). It's an
> interesting question to compare the strength of the top women today with
> the top men of the past but I don't think the data exist to do this
> properly.

quote:

> Dave.
>
> --
> David Richerby Solar-Powered Spoon (TM): it's
> like a
> www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ piece of cutlery but it doesn't
> work
> in the dark!

Chess One

2005-01-15, 6:47 am

>> --------

quote:

>
> I think you are correct, but there is a double standard in society which
> is also not fair.

Rob

2005-01-15, 9:46 am

Chess One wrote:

quote:

needs"[vbcol=seagreen]
Feminist[vbcol=seagreen]
which[vbcol=seagreen]
>
>
> I thought it would be worth collecting 'attitudes' in public

newsgroups for

quote:

> a few days before continuing this subject - remarkably, many of them

in 2005

quote:

> are similar to what follows - and which I note are sociological

factors of

quote:

> history which pertain to segregation and women in sports. In contrast

to the

quote:

> usual 'level playing-field' ideas of opportunity which is the

received

quote:

> version, here is an actual record from the past century in mostly
> Olympic-level athletics.
>
> In 1924 the International Amateur Athletic Federation (IAAF) denied

women

quote:

> the right to compete in the Games. But the handwriting was on the

wall:

quote:

> women had started to rebel. Following Mme. Milliat's success in

organizing a

quote:

> big competition for women, other, similar events were created, such

as the

quote:

> International and British Games. Suddenly, sensing that women were

going to

quote:

> up and chart their own course, the IAAF agreed in 1927 to "organize"

women

quote:

> athletes and recommended that the next Games include a generous five

female

quote:

> events. Mme. Milliat protested that in no way could this be

considered a

quote:

> full program. British women athletes, feeling more independent now

that

quote:

> they'd put on their own Games, boycotted the restrictive 1928

Olympics.

quote:

> Clearly, mounting political pressure against the monolithically male

IOC was

quote:

> causing some of its power to erode.
>
>
>
> In 1930 the Olympic Congress reversed the committee's decision and

voted to

quote:

> let women back in. The effects of athletic competition on women's

health

quote:

> continued to be made into a big issue. Endurance events in particular

were

quote:

> considered beyond women. In the 1932 Games in Los Angeles, the

Olympic

quote:

> committee finally decided to include a few track-and-field events for

women.

quote:

>
>
>
> A breakthrough female athlete was America's Mildred "Babe" Didrikson,

who

quote:

> won gold medals in the javelin and 80-meter hurdles and a silver

medal in

quote:

> the high jump. But after the women's 800-meter race, a rumor

circulated that

quote:

> some of the runners had come across the finish line staggering from

fatigue,

quote:

> "pale" and "exhausted." Other racers couldn't even get to the finish,

it was

quote:

> said.
>
>
>
> We're talking about a race of less than 900 yards! The rumor about

the fated

quote:

> 800 quickly became fact, and world opinion calcified. "The cinder

track was

quote:

> strewn with wretched damsels in agonized distress,"
>
>
>
> The New York Times proclaimed. The Daily Mail of London quoted a

doctor who

quote:

> insisted that "women who took part in the 800 meter race and other

such

quote:

> feats of endurance would become too old too soon."
>
>
>
> Even Knute Rockne, the famous Notre Dame football coach, felt he had

quote:

> chime in, calling the women's race "a pitiful spectacle."
>
>
>
> The medical opinion that women were frail still held the day. The

800-meter

quote:

> races were kept off-limits to women for another thirty-two years!
>
>
>
> When sport historian Lynne Emery re-examined the data on that

controversial

quote:

> 800-meter race in 1932, she found that in fact all nine finalists had

quote:

> completed it. Olympic officials had never had a good reason to

eliminate the

quote:

> event. By the time Emery's historical revision was published,

however, the

quote:

> damage had long been
>
> done.
>
>
>
> Phil Innes

Rob

2005-01-19, 12:46 am

Chess One wrote:

quote:

needs"[vbcol=seagreen]
Feminist[vbcol=seagreen]
which[vbcol=seagreen]
>
>
> I thought it would be worth collecting 'attitudes' in public

newsgroups for

quote:

> a few days before continuing this subject - remarkably, many of them

in 2005

quote:

> are similar to what follows - and which I note are sociological

factors of

quote:

> history which pertain to segregation and women in sports. In contrast

to the

quote:

> usual 'level playing-field' ideas of opportunity which is the

received

quote:

> version, here is an actual record from the past century in mostly
> Olympic-level athletics.
>
> In 1924 the International Amateur Athletic Federation (IAAF) denied

women

quote:

> the right to compete in the Games. But the handwriting was on the

wall:

quote:

> women had started to rebel. Following Mme. Milliat's success in

organizing a

quote:

> big competition for women, other, similar events were created, such

as the

quote:

> International and British Games. Suddenly, sensing that women were

going to

quote:

> up and chart their own course, the IAAF agreed in 1927 to "organize"

women

quote:

> athletes and recommended that the next Games include a generous five

female

quote:

> events. Mme. Milliat protested that in no way could this be

considered a

quote:

> full program. British women athletes, feeling more independent now

that

quote:

> they'd put on their own Games, boycotted the restrictive 1928

Olympics.

quote:

> Clearly, mounting political pressure against the monolithically male

IOC was

quote:

> causing some of its power to erode.
>
>
>
> In 1930 the Olympic Congress reversed the committee's decision and

voted to

quote:

> let women back in. The effects of athletic competition on women's

health

quote:

> continued to be made into a big issue. Endurance events in particular

were

quote:

> considered beyond women. In the 1932 Games in Los Angeles, the

Olympic

quote:

> committee finally decided to include a few track-and-field events for

women.

quote:

>
>
>
> A breakthrough female athlete was America's Mildred "Babe" Didrikson,

who

quote:

> won gold medals in the javelin and 80-meter hurdles and a silver

medal in

quote:

> the high jump. But after the women's 800-meter race, a rumor

circulated that

quote:

> some of the runners had come across the finish line staggering from

fatigue,

quote:

> "pale" and "exhausted." Other racers couldn't even get to the finish,

it was

quote:

> said.
>
>
>
> We're talking about a race of less than 900 yards! The rumor about

the fated

quote:

> 800 quickly became fact, and world opinion calcified. "The cinder

track was

quote:

> strewn with wretched damsels in agonized distress,"
>
>
>
> The New York Times proclaimed. The Daily Mail of London quoted a

doctor who

quote:

> insisted that "women who took part in the 800 meter race and other

such

quote:

> feats of endurance would become too old too soon."
>
>
>
> Even Knute Rockne, the famous Notre Dame football coach, felt he had

quote:

> chime in, calling the women's race "a pitiful spectacle."
>
>
>
> The medical opinion that women were frail still held the day. The

800-meter

quote:

> races were kept off-limits to women for another thirty-two years!
>
>
>
> When sport historian Lynne Emery re-examined the data on that

controversial

quote:

> 800-meter race in 1932, she found that in fact all nine finalists had

quote:

> completed it. Olympic officials had never had a good reason to

eliminate the

quote:

> event. By the time Emery's historical revision was published,

however, the

quote:

> damage had long been
>
> done.
>
>
>
> Phil Innes

Andrew Bull

2005-01-19, 12:46 am

Rob wrote in message
<1105505795.393987.255800@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>...

quote:

>Exactly right. In fact, I think the times between todays mens and
>womens runners are closer in time than todays mens times were to the
>times of men fifty years ago.

Going by world records, you're wrong for all distances shorter than the
marathon.
For quite a few distances, you'd be wrong if you'd said "100 years ago".