quote:

---

>
> They are going to respend all the sale money from New Windsor ...
>
> Its not just that this is all of the sale money from New Windsor, its the
> last of any money. Current income and expenditure being roughly equal,
> there are no forseeable big new chunks of it ...
>
> Phil Innes

quote:

---

>"Chess One" <innes8@verizon.net> wrote ...
>
>Phil,
>
>Over and over, the USCF Executive Board has said that USCF is building its
>new headquarters in Crossville with a no-money-down construction loan.
>
>But you keep complaining that USCF is spending "all of the sale money from
>New Windsor ... the last of any money."
>
>It's awfully hard to hold a discussion with you, when you can't even get the
>basic facts right.
>
>Not only are we preserving most of our cash from the New Windsor building
>sale, we will not even have to impact our cash flow significantly to pay the
>mortgage. As I've mentioned here a few times, once USCF moves to Crossville
>we will no longer need to pay $40,000 annual rent for the office space next
>to our current building. And we will no longer need to spend $25,200 annual
>rent for storage space. So our Crossville mortgage will pretty much be
>covered by sums we are currently spending.
>
>I'm sure there will be some expensive surprises somewhere during this move
>to Crossville--there always are, in large projects like this--but the
>underlying finances look pretty good.
>
>I understand that you doesn't like the move to Crossville. Nor do your
>friends and allies: Larry Parr, Bill Goichberg, Don Schultz, and Sam Sloan.
>
>But when you ignore the facts, and make up stuff, and repeat it over and
>over, you only make yourself look silly. Not me, not the USCF
>Board--yourself.
>
>So, Phil: I suggest you stop telling fibs.
>
>Here's a better idea for you: wait for something bad to happen in *real
>life*, then complain about it loudly. :-)
>
>This morning I was on a conference call with the team planning the move.
>It's evident that moving the USCF to Crossville is a big, complicated
>project. If you are patient, eventually you are bound to find something
>*real* to complain about--construction delays, or service delays, or some
>unforeseen expense.
>
>However, it seems you haven't been a USCF member since 1996, so it's not
>clear to me how USCF's move could impact you at all, one way or the other.
>
>Tim Hanke
>USCF Vice President of Finance
>
>

quote:

---

>USCF, which includes the money from the sale of the building in New
>Windsor.
>
>So, by building in Crossville you are using the last money the USCF
>has, even if you receive a substantial loan.
>
>Sam Sloan.

quote:

---

>On 4 November 2004 "Tim Hanke" timothyhanke@comcast.net replied in
>Message-id: <oABid.55913$R05.19719@attbi_s53>
>

quote:

---

>Over and over, the USCF Executive Board has said that USCF is building its
>new headquarters in Crossville with a no-money-down construction loan.
>

quote:

---

>Not only are we preserving most of our cash from the New Windsor building
>sale, we will not even have to impact our cash flow significantly to pay the
>mortgage.

quote:

---

>covered by sums we are currently spending.
>
>
>Tim Hanke
>USCF Vice President of Finance
>
>
>
>No bank worth its salt would give a "no-money-down construction loan" without

quote:

---

>
>
>
>

quote:

---

>"Chess One" <innes8@verizon.net> wrote ...
>
>Phil,
>
>Over and over, the USCF Executive Board has said that USCF is building its
>new headquarters in Crossville with a no-money-down construction loan.
>
>But you keep complaining that USCF is spending "all of the sale money from
>New Windsor ... the last of any money."
>
>It's awfully hard to hold a discussion with you, when you can't even get the
>basic facts right.
>
>Not only are we preserving most of our cash from the New Windsor building
>sale, we will not even have to impact our cash flow significantly to pay the
>mortgage. As I've mentioned here a few times, once USCF moves to Crossville
>we will no longer need to pay $40,000 annual rent for the office space next
>to our current building. And we will no longer need to spend $25,200 annual
>rent for storage space. So our Crossville mortgage will pretty much be
>covered by sums we are currently spending.
>
>I'm sure there will be some expensive surprises somewhere during this move
>to Crossville--there always are, in large projects like this--but the
>underlying finances look pretty good.

quote:

---

>
>I understand that you doesn't like the move to Crossville. Nor do your
>friends and allies: Larry Parr, Bill Goichberg, Don Schultz, and Sam Sloan.

quote:

---

>
>But when you ignore the facts, and make up stuff, and repeat it over and
>over, you only make yourself look silly.

quote:

---

> Not me, not the USCF
>Board--yourself.
>
>So, Phil: I suggest you stop telling fibs.
>
>Here's a better idea for you: wait for something bad to happen in *real
>life*, then complain about it loudly. :-)
>
>This morning I was on a conference call with the team planning the move.
>It's evident that moving the USCF to Crossville is a big, complicated
>project. If you are patient, eventually you are bound to find something
>*real* to complain about--construction delays, or service delays, or some
>unforeseen expense.
>
>However, it seems you haven't been a USCF member since 1996, so it's not
>clear to me how USCF's move could impact you at all, one way or the other.
>
>Tim Hanke
>USCF Vice President of Finance
>
>

quote:

---

> receiving collateral in return. You might consider the loan from the bank
> as
> "no money down," but the bank expects to gain something that secures or
> guarantees the discharge of the USCF's obligation.

quote:

---

>
> It is obvious that the USCF has more than sufficient funds for the
> necessary tasks, provided that these are organized sensibly.
>
> However, sensible organization is unlikely when the responsible people
> think that a no-money-down loan is necessarily an advantageous loan.
> The down-payment is not the only factor to be considered.

quote:

---

> receiving collateral in return. You might consider the loan from the bank as
> "no money down," but the bank expects to gain something that secures or
> guarantees the discharge of the USCF's obligation.

quote:

---

> ...
> In my opinion, the decision to move to Crossville to construct a new building
> for the federation is bad financially and logistically. The "strategic plan" is
> flawed.

quote:

---

>
> No bank worth its salt would give a "no-money-down construction loan" without
> receiving collateral in return. You might consider the loan from the bank as
> "no money down," but the bank expects to gain something that secures or
> guarantees the discharge of the USCF's obligation. What financial advisers
> were consulted before the USCF executive board voted to move to Crossville?
>
> George Mirijanian

quote:

---

>Do you think that the bank will accept the land (on which the building
>will be built) as sufficient collateral for a construction loan?

quote:

---

>I do, because I heard the banker say so.

quote:

---

>
>
> -snipped-
>
>
> -snipped-
>
> . . .our Crossville mortgage will pretty much be
> receiving collateral in return. You might consider the loan from the bank
> as
> "no money down," but the bank expects to gain something that secures or
> guarantees the discharge of the USCF's obligation. What financial advisers
> were
> consulted before the USCF executive board voted to move to Crossville?

quote:

---

> One of the primary reasons that the federation has been able to "salt
> away"
> funds this past year is that it has not been obligated to pay the salary
> for a
> full-time executive director and it has currently a Chess Life editor who
> reportedly is working for a lower fee than any of the magazine's immediate
> former editors. Once a full-time paid ED is hired as well as a new CL
> editor is
> on board, the combined salary expenditures should be more than $100,000.
> Will
> the savings come from hiring people in the Crossville area at minimum
> wage? Was
> the Crossville Chamber of Commerce given a number as to the number of
> people
> that would be hired from the local area?

quote:

---

> "Tim Hanke" <timothyhanke@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
> It is obvious that the USCF has more than sufficient funds for the
> necessary tasks, provided that these are organized sensibly.
>
> However, sensible organization is unlikely when the responsible people
> think that a no-money-down loan is necessarily an advantageous loan.
> The down-payment is not the only factor to be considered.

quote:

---

>
> In the medium and long range an organization like the USCF will always
> spend its current income, no matter how large, on current expenses.
> Any surplus will be taken care of by self-dealing.
>

quote:

---

>
> I like the consistency. The USCF is an organization of hicks and
> belongs in a hick town. All of its functions can be taken care of from
> any location at all.
>
> Who was the last reputable Chess player who had any function at all in
> the USCF?

quote:

---

>
> "Jürgen R." <jurgenr@web.de> wrote in message
> news:418b3160.3946805@news.individual.de...
>
>
> This is a classic illustration of marketing at work. Offer "free land" and
> "no money down" and there will always be lots of buyers who lose
> the ability to evaluate a deal rationally.
>
>

quote:

---

>On 5 November 2004 timothyhanke@comcast.net (Tim Hanke) wrote in
>Message-id: <b2a11a50.0411051409.a33c86f@posting.google.com>
>
>
>
>George,
>
>You are right, the bank does expect "to gain something that secures or
>guarantees the discharge of the USCF's obligation."
>
>It's called a "mortgage."
>
>You probably don't know much about mortgages, because you have never
>had one. They are sophisticated financial instruments specifically
>designed to protect the rights of lenders in real estate transactions.
>
>If USCF fails to "pay the mortgage," the Crossville bank will
>"foreclose on our property." At least, this is what our "financial
>advisers" tell me.
>
>Tim Hanke
>USCF Vice President of Finance
>
>
>
>Tim, please don't say "You probably don't know much about mortgages, because

quote:

---

>On 5 November 2004 "Randy Bauer" randybauer2300@yahoo.com wrote in
>Message-id: <XRVid.369895$D%.355427@attbi_s51>
>

quote:

---

>There are aspects of the move that should please your typical financial
>adviser.

quote:

---

>time.

quote:

---

>
>Randy Bauer
>
>
>
>Please define "considerable period of time." Does that mean one year? When

quote:

---

>
>
>
>

quote:

---

>
> With the exception of Brady and Schultz, those who serve on the current
> executive board are woefully ignorant of the federation's past
> performance.
> They are Johnny-come-latelies to the national chess scene. Brady, Schultz
> and
> Goichberg have been around since the early 1960s. Their collective
> knowledge of
> what works and doesn't work should be listened to. Unfortunately, the
> current
> EB is composed primarily of people who want to reinvent the wheel and
> think
> that they know better than those who have many more years of experience in
> chess management. I am always amused by upstarts who think that they know
> better than the veterans.

quote:

---

> It all comes down to "who was minding the store" while various
> policy/executive
> boards allowed the various executive directors post-Lawrence to run amuck.
> If the move to Crossville doesn't do a darn thing to increase the adult
> membership base, then the move, in my opinion, is for naught.
>
> George Mirijanian
>
>

quote:

---

>
>
>
> -snipped-
>
> . . . we will have rent-free use of space for a considerable period of
>
> -snipped-
>
>
> does it begin and when does it end?

quote:

---

>
> you have never had one." I have been a homeowner since 1992 and have been
> paying a mortgage for the past 12 years. I know about mortgages. If the
> USCF
> fails "to pay the mortgage," the Crossville bank will forclose on the
> property,
> which, of course, the federation received gratis from the city of
> Crossville
> with the proviso that a building be built and local people will be hired
> by the
> USCF.
>
> Questions:
> 1. What is the real assessed value of the "gratis" land deeded to the
> USCF?
> 2. What is the projected cost of constructing a building on this land?
> Architect's fee? How many square feet?
> How long will it take to build the structure? Projected completion date?
> What
> will be the property taxes payable to the city and the county? How much
> will be
> the mortage payments to the bank? Will it be accelerated?
> 3. Is the city of Crossville and/or the chamber of commerce expecting that
> area
> residents will be hired? How many?
> 4. When does the "free rent" at temporary quarters in Crossville expire?
> When
> does it start?
> There are so many other questions I could ask about this transaction and I
> hope
> that the USCF's "financial advisers" have asked them.
> My father was in business for more than 60 years before he died and I know
> he
> would never approve of the details of this business deal that has a higher
> risk
> factor for the federation than it does for the city of Crossville. If Ed
> Edmondson were still alive, I bet he would also not approve of this
> transaction
> and would be rolling over in his grave as to what has happened to the
> USCF.
> What the federation has to address is the root cause of a declining adult
> membership and not pulling up stakes in New York state in the preconceived
> notion that a move to Tennessee is going to make things better. Moving to
> Crossville without increasing the membership base, especially among
> adults, and
> improving membership services is not going to help in any way.
> The USCF made money in the past because it was "managed" properly and it
> had
> executive boards, then policy boards, that did little interference with
> the
> day-to-day operation of the federation. One of the biggest mistakes the
> federation made was hiring the resume-embellishing George DeFeis as
> executive
> director and having Tim Redman serve as the meddling executive board
> president
> during the former's tenure. That chemistry of personalities was disastrous
> and
> it cost the federation dearly. The predecessor Cavallo was also a
> disaster.
> Niro, who had more chess and business acumen than both Cavallo and DeFeis,
> inherited a mess. Yes, of course, he made mistakes but the real damage was
> already made before he came on board.
> With the exception of Brady and Schultz, those who serve on the current
> executive board are woefully ignorant of the federation's past
> performance.
> They are Johnny-come-latelies to the national chess scene. Brady, Schultz
> and
> Goichberg have been around since the early 1960s. Their collective
> knowledge of
> what works and doesn't work should be listened to. Unfortunately, the
> current
> EB is composed primarily of people who want to reinvent the wheel and
> think
> that they know better than those who have many more years of experience in
> chess management. I am always amused by upstarts who think that they know
> better than the veterans.
> It all comes down to "who was minding the store" while various
> policy/executive
> boards allowed the various executive directors post-Lawrence to run amuck.
> If the move to Crossville doesn't do a darn thing to increase the adult
> membership base, then the move, in my opinion, is for naught.
>
> George Mirijanian

quote:

---

>
> It doesn't take a degree in marketing to comprehend that the land has

quote:

---

> It doesn't take a financial adviser to comprehend that securing a
> construction loan while maintaining maximum liquidity has certain

quote:

---

> for the organization as well.

quote:

---

>Brady, Schultz and
>Goichberg have been around since the early 1960s. Their collective knowledge
>of
>what works and doesn't work should be listened to. Unfortunately, the current
>EB is composed primarily of people who want to reinvent the wheel and think
>that they know better than those who have many more years of experience in
>chess management. I am always amused by upstarts who think that they know
>better than the veterans.
>It all comes down to "who was minding the store" while various
>policy/executive
>boards allowed the various executive directors post-Lawrence to run amuck.

quote:

---

>Moving to
>Crossville without increasing the membership base, especially among adults, and
>improving membership services is not going to help in any way.

quote:

---

>The USCF made money in the past because it was "managed" properly and it had
>executive boards, then policy boards, that did little interference with the
>day-to-day operation of the federation.

quote:

---

>One of the biggest mistakes the
>federation made was hiring the resume-embellishing George DeFeis as executive
>director and having Tim Redman serve as the meddling executive board president
>during the former's tenure. That chemistry of personalities was disastrous and
>it cost the federation dearly. The predecessor Cavallo was also a disaster.
>Niro, who had more chess and business acumen than both Cavallo and DeFeis,
>inherited a mess. Yes, of course, he made mistakes but the real damage was
>already made before he came on board.

quote:

---

>
> "Randy Bauer" <randybauer2300@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:9mWid.61150$R05.56979@attbi_s53...
> value.
> advantages
>
> Sure, but those factors are a barely significant part of the deal.
> Portraying them as major selling points (a la Hanke) suggests
> a lack of understanding.
>

quote:

---

>
> You've totally lost me here, Obi-wan. I guess I'll have to admit to a

quote:

---

> of understanding. Why isn't getting land with value and a loan that
> maximizes our financial options significant?
>

quote:

---

>
>"David Kane" <davidekane@comcast.net> wrote in message
>news:pNYid.360374$MQ5.266387@attbi_s52...
>
>You've totally lost me here, Obi-wan. I guess I'll have to admit to a lack
>of understanding. Why isn't getting land with value and a loan that
>maximizes our financial options significant?

quote:

---

>
>"Jürgen R." <jurgenr@web.de> wrote in message
>news:418b3160.3946805@news.individual.de...
>
>They don't; in fact, there has been plenty of discussion about how the USCF
>should approach the repayment of the loan.

quote:

---

>
>The reason the no-money-down aspect of the loan has been coming up in
>discussion is to negate the argument that the USCF is simply plowing the
>proceeds of the sale of its previous building back into the new location.
>The fact is that the proceeds are not being used as a down payment or, for
>that matter, to make payments on the construction loan.
>
>If the USCF wishes, it can pay down a larger share of the loan each month.
>This may depend on a number of factors, but it is sometimes useful to have
>that flexibility.

quote:

---

>
>
>These are the sorts of sweeping statements that make it difficult to
>continue a rational conversation.

quote:

---

>
>
>AKA, when did you stop beating your wife?

quote:

---

> Is it any wonder people who have
>"any function at all in the USCF" don't post here much?

quote:

---

>
>Randy Bauer
>
>
>

quote:

---

>
> "Randy Bauer" <randybauer2300@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:nn_id.360498$MQ5.340444@attbi_s52...
>
> lack
>
> You have to compare them to the cost of the conditions
> enabling their receipt.
>
> It's like bragging about a $30,000 car purchase because
> you got a "free" rustproof package. It's possible that you
> got a good deal for a car you needed, but it's also
> possible that you're overpaying for something you don't
> need. The "incentive" is irrelevant to the assessment.
>

quote:

---

> "Randy Bauer" <randybauer2300@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> Depends upon what the value of the land is and what the repayment
> terms are. In general, if I am unable to make a down payment I do not
> expect to obtain advantageous mortgage terms. - But in this case
> probably Crossville is as broke as the USCF - why else would they be
> so interested in attracting this crowd of incompetents?
>
> A good guess would be that this free land is free for the usual
> reason: It isn't worth very much.

quote:

---

> maximize liquidity to help cashflow during the move irrelevent incentives?

quote:

---

> A bit of advice -- think before you post. Why don't you do some basic
> research about Crossville, about the assessed value of the gifted land and
> about why communities offer incentives? It's all information that's
> readily available over the Internet (I'm sure you've heard of it). Then
> come back and report what you've learned.

quote:

---

> Class dismissed.

quote:

---

> George:
>
> Who was "minding the store" when Cavallo "ran amok?"
>
> Who was President? Don Schulz.
>
> Who was Vice-President? Bill Goichberg.
>
> So the same guys whose collective experience you extoll, are the same guys
> who
> weren't minding the store?
>
> I don't think that makes a lot of sense. In fact, it makes no sense.

quote:

---

>
>"Miriling" <miriling@aol.com> wrote in message
>news:20041105210920.07087.00000134@mb-m10.aol.com...
>
>Oh, please, what a crock. All those old wise veteran people who "know
>better" did such an admirable job -- piling deficit upon deficit and
>shirking their responsibility to make hard fiscally sound choices.
>
>Johnny-come-latelies? Elisabeth has been President of one of the larger
>state federations, a founder of the Berkeley chess school and a participant
>in multiple chess olympaids.

quote:

---

>
> How does it compare to other options for (a) a site, and (b) future
> activities that must be performed at the site?

quote:

---

>
> That's about the size of the non-discussion, Randy. I don't see anyone
> arguing here (those who bother to discuss content at all) for anything
> else.
>
> Maybe Crossville is the best of all places! How would we know that?
>
> Maybe building 4,000 sq feet of new space will exactly accommodate USCF in
> the C21st, will it?
>
> Cordially, Phil Innes

quote:

---

> Randy, this dismissive attitude to your correspondent demeans the basis of
> your own assertions and confidence in your decision. You want your, and
> only your choice to be considered, and to be the only topic of
> conversation.

quote:

---

>
>
> I note that this point of view is a hypocritical one; if you really felt
> that comprehensive research on a site was essential, why then rush ahead
> without waiting for two weeks, by taking in all the information there is
> to be had on Liberty?

quote:

---

>
> How on earth can Crossville be assessed when there are no fair comparisons
> to be made on an alternate site? This sort of 'discussion' is the feature
> that is most alarming about Crossville-jocks.
>
> Patzer see a Crossville, Patzer take a Crossville, it's free, right?
> <lol> - But wait! Perhaps there is a better move!

quote:

---

>
>
> Objective criteria ought not to be dismissed, nor the people who offer it.

quote:

---

>
> What are you so afraid of in making a few likely comparisons - you don't
> really seem to have the actions of people truly confident in their
> decisions to write like this.
>
> Phil Innes

quote:

---

> "Miriling" <miriling@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20041105210920.07087.00000134@mb-m10.aol.com...

quote:

---

>
> George,
>
> Fortunately for USCF, I'm the Vice President of Finance and you're not.
>
> But my term as VP of Finance expires in August 2005. If I'm not re-elected,
> you and your cronies can get back to losing money and f*cking everything up,
> just like you were before.
>
> Tim Hanke

quote:

---

>
> How does it compare to other options for (a) a site, and (b) future
> activities that must be performed at the site?

quote:

---

>
> That's about the size of the non-discussion, Randy. I don't see anyone
> arguing here (those who bother to discuss content at all) for anything else.
>
> Maybe Crossville is the best of all places! How would we know that?

quote:

---

>
> How are the gift of land valued at over $200 k and a loan with terms that
> maximize liquidity to help cashflow during the move irrelevent incentives?
>

quote:

---

>
> "Chess One" <innes8@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:3p4jd.1469$EE3.507@trndny09...
>
> We've had those conversations ad nauseum over the last couple of months.

quote:

---

> I was a proponent of waiting for the possibility of what I viewed as a
> better financial offer, but I don't think we got a bad deal in Crossville
> either.

quote:

---

> I think there will be advantages in terms of a less costly area, a
> supportive community, and a more central location. It also provides the
> opportunity to design space suitable for our needs.

quote:

---

>
> Phil, these issues have been discussed, on the newsgroups and elsewhere.
> I guess I'm having a hard time understandnig the other side in the
> discussions, because they mostly claim to want detailed information but
> seek to resort to nothing but sweeping generalizations themselves.

quote:

---

> If the smallest detail isn't provided, they harp on the lack of it, but
> when it is pointed out that there are holes in their sweeping
> generalizations, they mostly simply repeat them. It reminds me of a
> Churchill quote about people who run into the truth but pick themselves
> right up and go on their way.

quote:

---

> Randy Bauer
>
>
>

quote:

---

>
> "Chess One" <innes8@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:TC4jd.1498$EE3.48@trndny09...
>
> Oh please. There is a right and a wrong way to discuss, and making
> sweeping pejorative assertions without providing any basic level of
> backing for the assertion is not discussion. If you wish to claim that my
> finding them objectionable means that I'm demeaning my own assertions,
> fine, but you'd win no points in the argumentation courses I taught 15
> years ago by claiming it.

quote:

---

>
> Do you know anything about what happened? I voted FOR the motion to wait
> two weeks. At the same time, my response was to specific assertions that
> Crossville was broke (absurd and untrue), the land has no value (assessed
> at over $200,000), and there is no basis for communities offering
> incentives (go to any local economic development site to learn about why
> this is done). Please try and keep follow up discussions focused on what
> the previous posters were disagreeing about.

quote:

---

>
> Gee, Phil, thanks for the chess analogy. I don't really know much about
> the game.

quote:

---

> The majority of the Board felt that it was necessary to make a decision to
> avoid "time pressure" in accomplishing the move in a timely fashion.
> Sooner or later you have to make a decision, right?

quote:

---

> How does it compare to other options for (a) a site, and (b) future
> activities that must be performed at the site?

quote:

---

>
> There was nothing objective offered in the absurd claims made to which I
> responded negatively.
>
> Believe me, Phil, I make a lot tougher decisions in my day job than this
> one. I'm confident the USCF is in a better financial position now than a
> couple years ago and that the move will continue that trend. That said, I
> don't necessarily think it was the perfect decision, but reasonable people
> can reach differing conclusions.

quote:

---

> Randy Bauer
>

quote:

---

> "Chess One" <innes8@verizon.net> writes:
>
>
> One was in place.
>
> The other was vaporware.
>
>
> We might consider their package for more than 1 year. Call 3 times for
> others to step forward with better offers. Extend deadlines 6 times to
> accomodate advocates who are too incompetent to meet the original
> deadline. And then evaluate everything and make a reasoned choice.
>
> Oh...wait...that's what the USCF did.

quote:

---

> --
> Kenneth Sloan sloan@uab.edu
> Computer and Information Sciences (205) 934-2213
> university of Alabama at Birmingham FAX (205) 934-5473
> Birmingham, AL 35294-1170 http://www.cis.uab.edu/sloan/

quote:

---

> ...
> A straight answer! Hoo hah!!!
>
> So the net result is that for (a) no comparison whatever has taken place
> since USCF couldn't wait 2 weeks for it, and the answer to (b) is that there
> is no strategic plan.

quote:

---

>
>"Randy Bauer" <randybauer2300@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:Vj4jd.371244$D%.32894@attbi_s51...
>
>
>I already answered. Compare them to the cost of the
>conditions enabling their receipt.
>
>"I should remind you that the incentives offered by the City
>and others, as you noted and for which you appeared grateful
>in said press release, along with the conveyance of the City's
>real property to USCF are not mere gifts. The USCF
> ^^^^^^^^^^
>agreed, through various channels, including Mr. Sabine, the
>Mayor, the Governor's Office, and Mrs. Alexander, to approve
>and provide an approximate number of jobs, and, eventually,
>a significant amount of tax revenue, to the City ..."
>
>There was no gift and the fact that the USCF
>doesn't seem to grasp that indicates a lack of savvy.
>And of course a ~$500k construction project and
>an ongoing obligation to maintain certain
>expenditure levels dwarfs the value of the
>"donated" land.

quote:

---

>So the net result is that for (a) no comparison whatever has taken place
>since USCF couldn't wait 2 weeks for it, and the answer to (b) is that there
>is no strategic plan.

quote:

---

>
> "Randy Bauer" <randybauer2300@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:_b5jd.361319$MQ5.94906@attbi_s52...
>
> Randy - you wrote a bunch of sarcasm to someone who asked a plain old
> question of you, with no personal abuse attached. You didn't answer his
> question. Is this what you consider a 'conversation?'

quote:

---

>
> No! I think I will continue to say what I want to based on my own
> perceptions of things, and not what you tell me I can write.

quote:

---

>
>
> You made exactly this sort of response to the person you replied to. Its
> not pleasant, eh, Mr. Patzer? So lets all put all that ad hominem garbage
> aside.
>

quote:

---

>
> Do you? Why incidentally did you put time pressure in inverted commas? To
> indicate some special meaning?
>
> In the other post to which I have just responded, I asked for two simple
> pieces of information which, despite your claim that there has been
> conversation 'ad nauseum' you couldn't provide. Here they are again.
>

See above for discussion of the three final site choices. I know of no
"future activities that must be performed at the site."[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> Now in the [unexplained] anxiety to make an immediate decision both these
> items seem to have been passed over. You don't seem to think they are
> worth answering - and no reason you have to do so! But I think they are
> important.
>
>
> Surely. But I don't see many reasonable people involved in these
> exchanges. You yourself said that youy thought the board should wait 2
> weeks. Was that a reasonable idea? If so, rejecting the idea is
> unreasonable, ipso facto.
>
> Cordially, Phil
>

quote:

---

>
>

quote:

---

>Randy, this dismissive attitude to your correspondent demeans the basis of
>your own assertions and confidence in your decision.

quote:

---

>
> "Randy Bauer" <randybauer2300@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:Vj4jd.371244$D%.32894@attbi_s51...
>
>
> I already answered. Compare them to the cost of the
> conditions enabling their receipt.

quote:

---

>
> "I should remind you that the incentives offered by the City
> and others, as you noted and for which you appeared grateful
> in said press release, along with the conveyance of the City's
> real property to USCF are not mere gifts. The USCF
> ^^^^^^^^^^
> agreed, through various channels, including Mr. Sabine, the
> Mayor, the Governor's Office, and Mrs. Alexander, to approve
> and provide an approximate number of jobs, and, eventually,
> a significant amount of tax revenue, to the City ..."
>

quote:

---

> There was no gift and the fact that the USCF
> doesn't seem to grasp that indicates a lack of savvy.
> And of course a ~$500k construction project and
> an ongoing obligation to maintain certain
> expenditure levels dwarfs the value of the
> "donated" land.

quote:

---

> "Chess One" <innes8@verizon.net> writes:
>
>
> And, as usual, a crooked response.

quote:

---

> --
> Kenneth Sloan sloan@uab.edu
> Computer and Information Sciences (205) 934-2213
> university of Alabama at Birmingham FAX (205) 934-5473
> Birmingham, AL 35294-1170 http://www.cis.uab.edu/sloan/

quote:

---

> "Chess One" <innes8@verizon.net> writes:
>
>
> The question is what would you consider a comparison. The board had
> a report by Frank Brady on the Liberty site but it didn't get into the
> financial details of what it might have costed to take over that site
> and where that money might have come from. There was no bank standing
> in line to finance that work, nor am I aware of the donor making any
> offers to assist the USCF in bring the building up to code, including
> checking for things like asbestos, replacing all the decades-old windows,
> etc.
>
> There were also lengthy discussions on the Board of the proposals from
> Lindsborg and Louisville.
>
> Was Crossville the best the USCF could do? Over two years after the
> original proposal to move the offices, a majority of the Board thought so.
>
> Even though Randy Bauer voted in favor of the two week delay, it looks
> like he's concluded that the prudent thing to do at this point is to
> make the best of the decision and not try to reopen it again and again
> and again.
> --
> Mike Nolan

quote:

---

>
> Phil, the "plain old question" was accompanied by "plain old" nauseating
> assertions -- USCF's Board has a "lack of understanding" about a very
> common sort of financial transaction, Crossville is broke, USCF is broke,
> USCF is a bunch of incompetents. Sorry, but if people expect those of us

quote:

---

> who are the supposed broke incompetents to respond to the simple
> questions, they might want to check the rest of the crap at the door; feel
> free to play the polite police routine, but don't expect me to put up with
> it without getting a little sarcastic.

quote:

---

>
> And my best best is I will soon find it too tedious to answer.

quote:

---

>
> I forget, I'm in the company of an internet international master. I guess
> you'll have to point out the ad hominem garbage to me. Telling somebody
> to do some basic research isn't ad hominem, where exactly am I attacking
> these people?

quote:

---

If you think this is 'conversation' don't bother to reply - I'm catching the
drift...
[vbcol=seagreen]
> Now, for where have these things been discussed, go do a Google search and
> find a fairly lengthy discussion of the Liberty and Crossville bids
> written by Steve Schutt. You xhould also be able to find an analysis I
> did comparing Crossville and Lindsborg. Finally, you should be able to
> find a costing analysis done by Bill Goichberg comparing all three. I'd
> be shocked if they haven't been posted on RGCP. If they haven't, I'm sure
> Sam with all his many contacts can find them for you.

quote:

---

>
> See above for discussion of the three final site choices. I know of no
> "future activities that must be performed at the site."

quote:

---

>
> I guess I'm not a black and white person. I don't think rejecting a
> reasonable idea is unreasonable. I think there can be more than one
> reasonable approach in many cases -- in chess, in politics, in chess
> politics, in budgeting, in finance, etc. I think this is one such case.

quote:

---

> Randy Bauer
>
>

quote:

---

>Mike, thanks for your message. I hope I do not pervert the sense of what you
>wrote below in a Sloanian-slip if I say that therefore on (a) there was a
>partial not full comparison with the major alternate site which appears to
>have been Liberty, and on (b) there isn't any particualr fit with a
>strategic plan, because there isn't a strategic plan.

quote:

---

>Cordially, Phil

quote:

---

> Phil Innes wrote in response to Randy Bauer:
>
>
> To this observer, his dismissive attitude is a reflection of the lack of
> your
> own dismissal of any facts or opinions with which you disagree. My lovely
> wife
> refers to this problem as being "hard of listening."
>
> Mr. Bauer attempted to engage in a civil discussion, displaying patience
> with
> your posts that verged on saintly. Unfortunately, your responses chose
> to
> ignore that which you didn't want to hear.
>
> The only thing that reflects poorly on Mr. Bauer in his dismissive
> attitude was
> that he displayed too much patience with you, not too little.
>
> Wick Deer

quote:

---

> "Chess One" <innes8@verizon.net> writes:
>
>
>
> Phil, what would you call a full comparison? Management is often called
> upon to make decisions with less information than they could have if
> they deferred the decision. The challenge is deciding when you have
> enough information, because you'll never have it all.

quote:

---

> As to formal strategic plans, I think those are overrated, especially in
> small organizations. I've been involved in other non-profits who spent
> thousands of dollars on 'strategic planning consultants' and hundreds of
> hours of board and staff time generating lengthy formal plans, it seldom
> helped run the business or even help decide whether they were headed
> in the right diretion or not.

quote:

---

> I also think that for the last 15 months we've had Boards who have had a
> far clearer vision of what was wrong and what needed to be done to fix it
> than we've had for most of the last decade.
>
> You can publish misleading graphs and meaningless tables of numbers,
> or you can diagnose the problem, take action, assess the result of
> that action, and repeat the cycle as needed.

quote:

---

> --
> Mike Nolan

quote:

---

>My understanding was that Liberty required two weeks to supply the same
>level of information as was available for Crossville.

quote:

---

>[I am not suggesting, nor have ever done so, some open ended continuous
>discussion]

quote:

---

>
> My understanding was that Liberty required two weeks to supply the same
> level of information as was available for Crossville.

quote:

---

>
>"Jürgen R." <jurgenr@web.de> wrote in message
>news:418c9070.6166957@news.individual.de...
>
>Another post with absurd sweeping generalizations. Crossville is "broke"
>and has no other interest in "attracting this crowd of incompetents." Land
>offered as a quid pro quo "isn't worth very much."
>
>A bit of advice -- think before you post. Why don't you do some basic
>research about Crossville,

quote:

---

> about the assessed value of the gifted land and
>about why communities offer incentives? It's all information that's readily
>available over the Internet (I'm sure you've heard of it). Then come back
>and report what you've learned.

quote:

---

>
>Class dismissed.
>
>
>