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Home > Archive > Chinese chess > September 2005 > Rules question about notation
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Rules question about notation
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| Alain Dekker 2005-09-25, 7:32 pm |
| Hi,
My name is Alain Dekker. I've cross-posted this to both the Chinese-chess
and Chess newsgroup because its strongly related. I play both games and have
for as long as I can remember written the move down on the paper (openly),
thought for perhaps a minute or two to confirm my choice, and then made the
move physically on the board.
Chess: I've since heard that FIDE have now made the law that you *must*
first make the move on the board and only then write the move down on the
paper. Is this correct? What, if any, are the penalties if your opponent is
anally-rentative enough to call you out for it?
Xiangqi (Chinese Chess): Is there such a rule in Chinese Chess? If I write
down the move (7.R7=8) on the paper, and then make the move on the board is
this is a problem? Has the WXF even considered this problem?
Thanks in advance,
Alain Dekker
| |
| Mike Murray 2005-09-25, 11:32 pm |
| On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 21:33:07 +0100, "Alain Dekker"
<abdekker@NOSPAM.fsmail.net> wrote:
quote:
>Chess: I've since heard that FIDE have now made the law that you *must*
>first make the move on the board and only then write the move down on the
>paper. Is this correct? What, if any, are the penalties if your opponent is
>anally-rentative enough to call you out for it?
If you are in Kalmykia, you will be shot.
USCF regs still allow either -- in most US tournaments, writing your
move down first OK. A few big American tournaments ignore USCF laws
in favor of toadying to FIDE, which relatively recently changed its
rules to say in Article 8.1, "It is forbidden to write the moves in
advance, unless the player is claiming a draw according to Article 9.2
[repetition] 9.3 [50-moves]".
I suppose the directors will warn you the first time, then forfeit you
at their discretion for subsequent violations.
| |
| Ken Blake 2005-09-26, 7:30 pm |
| In
news:no_one_knows-ED8091.17310826092005@comcast.dca.giganews.com,
Harold Buck <no_one_knows@comcast.net> typed:
quote:
> In article <11jgspbdl3eocee@corp.supernews.com>,
> "Ken Blake" <kblake@this.is.an.invalid.domain> wrote:
>
>
>
> That's why I referred to "both of his posts"; in the second
> one, he
> did quote the relevant text.
Yes, but I hadn't seen that one until after I replied to you.
--
Ken Blake
Please reply to the newsgroup
| |
| David Richerby 2005-09-26, 7:33 pm |
| Mike Murray <mikemurray@despammed.com> wrote:
quote:
> Alain Dekker <abdekker@NOSPAM.fsmail.net> wrote:
>
> [...] I suppose the directors will warn you the first time, then forfeit
> you at their discretion for subsequent violations.
The sanctions are defined in Article 13.4 of the FIDE rules. The arbiter
may:
o warn the player;
o add time to the opponent's clock;
o subtract time from the player's clock;
o declare the game to be lost;
o reduce the points scored by the player for that game (e.g., giving
only half a point even though the game was won);
o increase the points scored by the opponent (up to a maximum of 1);
o expel the player from the tournament.
Dave.
--
David Richerby Crystal Surprise Atom Bomb (TM): it's
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ like a weapon of mass destruction
but not like you'd expect and it's
completely transparent!
| |
| Mike Murray 2005-09-26, 7:33 pm |
| On 26 Sep 2005 09:57:15 +0100 (BST), David Richerby
<davidr@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
quote:
[vbcol=seagreen]
[vbcol=seagreen]
>The sanctions are defined in Article 13.4 of the FIDE rules. The arbiter
>may:
quote:
> o warn the player;
> o add time to the opponent's clock;
> o subtract time from the player's clock;
> o declare the game to be lost;
> o reduce the points scored by the player for that game (e.g., giving
> only half a point even though the game was won);
> o increase the points scored by the opponent (up to a maximum of 1);
> o expel the player from the tournament.
It's clear the directors don't have enough options. They should be
able to
o confiscate the player's pen and substitute a dull number 4 pencil
with no eraser;
o provide the opponent a large order of garlic fries;
o pinch the player;
o force the player to play the remainder of the game sitting on a wet
towel;
o hold the player's family hostage against further infraction
| |
| Anders Thulin 2005-09-26, 7:33 pm |
| Alain Dekker wrote:
quote:
> Chess: I've since heard that FIDE have now made the law that you *must*
> first make the move on the board and only then write the move down on the
> paper. Is this correct?
Yes. Article 8.1.
It seems reasonable: the players are required to record the moves of
the game. Writing moves down before they are made can only by a stretch
of the imagination be called 'recording a move'. On the contrary,
it could perhaps be claimed that by writing a move down first,
and then making the move, the player was making use of a note --
which is forbidden.
(It's also interesting that games now are lost if the player's
mobile phone rings in the playing venue during play. Have any
games been lost by this rule so far? Probably needs special support
in chess databases: 'lost due to mobile phone ringing...'.)
--
Anders Thulin ath*algonet.se http://www.algonet.se/~ath
| |
| youhao 2005-09-26, 7:33 pm |
| No such rule, you are free to record your move(s) the way you like.
The less rules the better.
Regards
| |
| Ken Blake 2005-09-26, 7:33 pm |
| In news:1127758093.657624.171350@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com,
youhao <cklailai@aol.com> typed:
quote:
> No such rule, you are free to record your move(s) the way you
> like.
Not correct. Go to
http://www.fide.com/official/handbook.asp?level=EE101 and read
rule 8.1
--
Ken Blake
Please reply to the newsgroup
| |
| youhao 2005-09-26, 7:33 pm |
| No such rule, you are free to record your move(s)
the way you like.
This is in reply to Alain Dekker who wrote:
quote:
>
> Xiangqi (Chinese Chess): Is there such a rule in
> Chinese Chess? If I write down the move (7. R7=8)
> on the paper, and then make the move on the board
> is this is a problem? Has the WXF even considered
> this problem?
>
Regards
| |
| Harold Buck 2005-09-26, 7:33 pm |
| In article <11jgk669s3m1l6c@corp.supernews.com>,
"Ken Blake" <kblake@this.is.an.invalid.domain> wrote:
quote:
> In news:1127758093.657624.171350@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com,
> youhao <cklailai@aol.com> typed:
>
>
>
> Not correct. Go to
> http://www.fide.com/official/handbook.asp?level=EE101 and read
> rule 8.1
I looked, and the FIDE website does not have the rules for Chinese
chess, which is what this poster was referring to and which was clear if
you read both of his posts.
--Harold Buck
"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson
| |
| Ken Blake 2005-09-26, 7:33 pm |
| In
news:no_one_knows-D7A792.16421526092005@comcast.dca.giganews.com,
Harold Buck <no_one_knows@comcast.net> typed:
quote:
> In article <11jgk669s3m1l6c@corp.supernews.com>,
> "Ken Blake" <kblake@this.is.an.invalid.domain> wrote:
>
>
>
> I looked, and the FIDE website does not have the rules for
> Chinese
> chess,
LOL! No it doesn't, and not surprisingly.
quote:
> which is what this poster was referring to and which was clear
> if you read both of his posts.
But it's not clear at all. youhao replied to a message without
quoting anything. Alain Dekker, the original poster, asked two
questions:
1. Chess: I've since heard that FIDE have now made the law that
you *must*
first make the move on the board and only then write the move
down on the
paper. Is this correct?
2. Xiangqi (Chinese Chess): Is there such a rule in Chinese
Chess?
Clearly my comment referred to the first of these questions.
However, if had taken the trouble to go back and read the
original question (which was no longer displayed here, since I
hide already-read messages), I might have guessed that since the
replier's name was youhao, he was probably addressing the Chinese
Chess question.
This underscores once again how important it is for replies to
quote enough of the message being replied to to put the reply
into context. Without such a quote, replies are easy to to be
unintelligible or, as in this case, misleading.
--
Ken Blake
Please reply to the newsgroup
| |
| Harold Buck 2005-09-26, 7:33 pm |
| In article <11jgspbdl3eocee@corp.supernews.com>,
"Ken Blake" <kblake@this.is.an.invalid.domain> wrote:
quote:
> Clearly my comment referred to the first of these questions.
> However, if had taken the trouble to go back and read the
> original question (which was no longer displayed here, since I
> hide already-read messages), I might have guessed that since the
> replier's name was youhao, he was probably addressing the Chinese
> Chess question.
>
> This underscores once again how important it is for replies to
> quote enough of the message being replied to to put the reply
> into context. Without such a quote, replies are easy to to be
> unintelligible or, as in this case, misleading.
That's why I referred to "both of his posts"; in the second one, he did
quote the relevant text.
--Harold Buck
"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson
| |
| David Richerby 2005-09-27, 5:33 am |
| Anders Thulin <ath_no_spam_please@algonet.se> wrote:
quote:
> Alain Dekker wrote:
>
> It seems reasonable: the players are required to record the moves of
> the game. Writing moves down before they are made can only by a stretch
> of the imagination be called 'recording a move'.
It achieves the desired effect, though, which is to be able to reconstruct
the game after the fact.
quote:
> On the contrary, it could perhaps be claimed that by writing a move down
> first, and then making the move, the player was making use of a note --
> which is forbidden.
That seems to be a better explanation, especially in the case where the
player writes down a move, crosses it out, writes down another, crosses it
out, ...
quote:
> (It's also interesting that games now are lost if the player's
> mobile phone rings in the playing venue during play. Have any
> games been lost by this rule so far?
Yes. Ponomariov lost a game this way:
http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=1239
Dave.
--
David Richerby Flammable Homicidal Chainsaw (TM):
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ it's like a lethal weapon but it
wants to kill you and it burns really
easily!
| |
| Alain Dekker 2005-09-28, 7:32 pm |
| Thanks to all for the posts.
I have now tried to amend my way of playing chess (I'll probably follow suit
in my Xiangqi tournament this weekend). The first game I played I tried to
write down the move almost every time - it was spooky! 2nd game a bit
better. Hopefully it'll feel more normal by game 3.
Regards,
Alain Dekker
"Alain Dekker" <abdekker@NOSPAM.fsmail.net> wrote in message
news:43370911$1_3@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com...
quote:
> Hi,
>
> My name is Alain Dekker. I've cross-posted this to both the Chinese-chess
> and Chess newsgroup because its strongly related. I play both games and
> have for as long as I can remember written the move down on the paper
> (openly), thought for perhaps a minute or two to confirm my choice, and
> then made the move physically on the board.
>
> Chess: I've since heard that FIDE have now made the law that you *must*
> first make the move on the board and only then write the move down on the
> paper. Is this correct? What, if any, are the penalties if your opponent
> is anally-rentative enough to call you out for it?
>
> Xiangqi (Chinese Chess): Is there such a rule in Chinese Chess? If I write
> down the move (7.R7=8) on the paper, and then make the move on the board
> is this is a problem? Has the WXF even considered this problem?
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Alain Dekker
>
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