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Author Optimal altitude / winds
David

2005-07-28, 8:36 pm

I know volumes have been written about best/optimal fuel management and
aircraft operation with regard to climb speed, cruise level and speed and
descent profiles, etc etc

Can anybody point me to a good site that easily explains the easiest way to
work out the best altitude to fly at with regard to varying head winds with
altitude.

I know that generally it is best to fly quite high due to reduced air
density and that optimal altitude is calculated by the fmc in the pmdg 737.

However often I will cruise at the optimum altitude as calculated by the fmc
but I will get a better Ground Speed (GS) if I fly a lower flight level
where the head wind is less. Add on programs like active sky will give me
the flight level wind strength and direction, but how do I work out what
flight level gives me the best GS.

David


Gregory

2005-07-28, 8:36 pm

On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 22:38:26 +1000, "David" <drdavid32@hotmail.com>
brought the following to our attention:
quote:

>I know volumes have been written about best/optimal fuel management and
>aircraft operation with regard to climb speed, cruise level and speed and
>descent profiles, etc etc


David.. am responding because of interest in the same thing.. although
may not know precisely what I'm [talking] about, and some may chuckle.
If you've got an FMC (built in computer).. its like having a flight
engineer sitting there with notebooks full of charts and tables.

The FMC has performance data stored in look-up tables or math
functions and can return LOTS of useful info about the flight.. etc.
Otherwise for older jets.. it would be necessary to have a number of
FM (manual) sheets for the particular aircraft that you're operating.
quote:

>Can anybody point me to a good site that easily explains the easiest way to
>work out the best altitude to fly at with regard to varying head winds with
>altitude.


you mean a general site for airspeed/headwinds? or for specific type?
quote:

>I know that generally it is best to fly quite high due to reduced air
>density and that optimal altitude is calculated by the fmc in the pmdg 737.
>
>However often I will cruise at the optimum altitude as calculated by the fmc
>but I will get a better Ground Speed (GS) if I fly a lower flight level
>where the head wind is less. Add on programs like active sky will give me
>the flight level wind strength and direction, but how do I work out what
>flight level gives me the best GS.


wait till John hears this.. could always make a Spreadsheet for your
plane.. and lets' not forget the FDE must be designed correctly or the
Sim won't perform like the real thing!!

If you'd like to work the `atmosphere' numbers.. see this page:

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/questio...ere/q0049.shtml


-g
quote:

>David
>


Gary L.

2005-07-28, 8:36 pm


"David" <drdavid32@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:42e8d1de$0$5404$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
quote:

>...Can anybody point me to a good site that easily explains the easiest way
>to work out the best altitude to fly at with regard to varying head winds
>with altitude....
>...often I will cruise at the optimum altitude as calculated by the fmc but
>I will get a better Ground Speed (GS) if I fly a lower flight level where
>the head wind is less. Add on programs like active sky will give me the
>flight level wind strength and direction, but how do I work out what flight
>level gives me the best GS.
>
> David
>

I don't have a site to recommend, but I wanted to make a comment (you may
already know this but it may benefit others). It really depends on what you
consider "best" altitude. To most airlines, the best altitude is the one
that gives you the best fuel economy, and I imagine this is how the FMC's
calculate it. In this case the higher the better is the usual rule of thumb
because the thinner air produces less drag at constant TAS. But IIRC, if
you want the best ground speed without regard to fuel consumption the
highest altitudes are not best in an airliner because you run into your Mach
limits (the higher you go the lower the speed of sound, so your Mach speed
is higher at the same airspeed as in a lower altitude). So your best ground
speed will come at the altitude where your best airspeed intersects your
Mach limit (say density altitude of 28000' for example, but depends on
aircraft). Now factor in winds and that may shift your altitude for best GS
a few thousand feet either way.

Well, I'm no expert, but just wanted to point out that most economical
altitude and your fastest altitudes are going to be different, have to
decide which you prefer.


Oskar Wagner

2005-07-28, 8:36 pm

"Gary L." <noone@123.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:QNSdncaro7u5kXTfRVn-ow@comcast.com...
quote:

>
> "David" <drdavid32@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:42e8d1de$0$5404$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
> I don't have a site to recommend, but I wanted to make a comment (you may
> already know this but it may benefit others). It really depends on what
> you consider "best" altitude. To most airlines, the best altitude is the
> one that gives you the best fuel economy, and I imagine this is how the
> FMC's calculate it. In this case the higher the better is the usual rule
> of thumb because the thinner air produces less drag at constant TAS. But
> IIRC, if you want the best ground speed without regard to fuel consumption
> the highest altitudes are not best in an airliner because you run into
> your Mach limits (the higher you go the lower the speed of sound, so your
> Mach speed is higher at the same airspeed as in a lower altitude). So
> your best ground speed will come at the altitude where your best airspeed
> intersects your Mach limit (say density altitude of 28000' for example,
> but depends on aircraft). Now factor in winds and that may shift your
> altitude for best GS a few thousand feet either way.
>
> Well, I'm no expert, but just wanted to point out that most economical
> altitude and your fastest altitudes are going to be different, have to
> decide which you prefer.
>

David, there's no easy way to calculate that. In fact it would be easy to
create a tool - e.g. a spreadsheet - to do some optimizing with all
pertinent factors such as Fuel Consumption, Cruising Altitude, Wind
Components but the thing is that IRL such optimizing is always hampered by
non-availability of routes, Flight Levels etc. You just can't go straight
from point to point on your desired altitude ;-)
So generally the airlines do some optimizing by calculating a few different
routings at various Flight Levels (yes there is some automatism in their
calculating tools) and take the most suitable.
Anyway it's also the question on what parameter you wish your optimizing.
Optimizing in Flight Time is something that most of the today's airlines
have definitely dropped due to the actual fuel prices...
--
Oskar Wagner
(retired Captain)

Remember, in the great scheme of things, we're all small potatoes....


John ward

2005-07-28, 8:36 pm

Hi Gregory,

Did you say Spreadsheet??!! */_*

Some of the technical stuff sends me cross-eyed, mate :-)), but
co-incidentally, I was reading up on X Plane yesterday, and noticed the
following:

http://www.x-plane.com/cruisealt.html

I'm not sure whether it's relevant, or useful, or just a flat-out
nuisance, but there it is anyway!

Regards,
John Ward
"Gregory" <flightsim.maps@bkwds.comcast.net> wrote in message
news:p5ohe1l379epo618khd5h6q8o07qpjapv1@4ax.com...
quote:

> On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 22:38:26 +1000, "David" <drdavid32@hotmail.com>
> brought the following to our attention:
>
>
> David.. am responding because of interest in the same thing.. although
> may not know precisely what I'm [talking] about, and some may chuckle.
> If you've got an FMC (built in computer).. its like having a flight
> engineer sitting there with notebooks full of charts and tables.
>
> The FMC has performance data stored in look-up tables or math
> functions and can return LOTS of useful info about the flight.. etc.
> Otherwise for older jets.. it would be necessary to have a number of
> FM (manual) sheets for the particular aircraft that you're operating.
>
>
> you mean a general site for airspeed/headwinds? or for specific type?
>
>
> wait till John hears this.. could always make a Spreadsheet for your
> plane.. and lets' not forget the FDE must be designed correctly or the
> Sim won't perform like the real thing!!
>
> If you'd like to work the `atmosphere' numbers.. see this page:
>
> http://www.aerospaceweb.org/questio...ere/q0049.shtml
>
>
> -g
>
>



Oskar Wagner

2005-07-29, 12:31 am


"Gregory" <flightsim.maps@bkwds.comcast.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:sqlie19fa0tqrmroa174bkb5if5c4gh3ao@4ax.com...
quote:

> On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 19:34:03 +0200, "Oskar Wagner"
> <rengaw@swissonline.ch> brought the following to our attention:
>
>
>
> splendid idea.. Sa!!
>
>
> -g
>

Not for me, for you! You're the master of all spreadsheets... I'm just a
bloody pilot..... ;-)
--
Oskar Wagner
(retired Captain)

Remember, in the great scheme of things, we're all small potatoes....


David

2005-07-29, 12:31 am

Thanks for the replies, the x-plane site discussed what I was sort of
wanting to know.

Regarding economical fuel management for the airbus then this site has a
fantastic real world document discussing all the issues, and I mean all the
issues!!

http://www.iata.org/NR/ContentConne...my_Material.pdf


"John ward" <johnrmward@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:42e931f5$0$1033$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
quote:

> Hi Gregory,
>
> Did you say Spreadsheet??!! */_*
>
> Some of the technical stuff sends me cross-eyed, mate :-)), but
> co-incidentally, I was reading up on X Plane yesterday, and noticed the
> following:
>
> http://www.x-plane.com/cruisealt.html
>
> I'm not sure whether it's relevant, or useful, or just a flat-out
> nuisance, but there it is anyway!
>
> Regards,
> John Ward
> "Gregory" <flightsim.maps@bkwds.comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:p5ohe1l379epo618khd5h6q8o07qpjapv1@4ax.com...
>
>



Gary L.

2005-07-29, 3:32 am


"David" <drdavid32@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:42e99462$0$5404$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
quote:

> Thanks for the replies, the x-plane site discussed what I was sort of
> wanting to know.
>


I downloaded the program from the X-plane site and it seems very logical.
Just do some test flights with your plane to get the numbers to plug into
it. (Though it seems more geared towards piston planes, it seems it would
work well for turbines too).


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